Bitcoin will be destroyed by early adopters - page 2.

niothor

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Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 12:34:36 PM

Quote from: niothor on December 07, 2013, 12:24:45 PM

Quote from: psyclon on December 07, 2013, 12:17:48 PM

Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

even the guy holding 10% of all the coins? you cant be serious. there are 5 people holding at least 20-30% of all coins. they could do it any time.

You can't destroy bitcoin with the price , end , point , end.
Even if they control 10% each time they pull a stunt like that they lose a few of their coins , things can't go like that forever.

Bitcoin is already at the point where I don't want to use it as a currency and am thinking of moving to litecoin.

In order for Bitcoin to be usable I need to be able to buy a bunch without breaking the bank and not be afraid to spend them.

If the price of Bitcoin is too high it does 2 things:
1. Forces me to buy small amounts of BTC for a price that I simply can't afford. Buying "what I can afford" kills me in exchange fees.
2. Makes me feel like its too valuable to spend.

Contrary to what some people think, some people want to use BTC as it was intended...to buy and sell shit.

With that being said, everyone who engages in BTC needs to put their speculation hat on once in awile because of it's volatility.

And you're safe buying 1000$ worth of LTC and not 1000$ of BTC.
This is a bit amazing considering we're talking about a difference of 1/6 market cap.

You'll have a far more influence in price swings when buying 1000$ worth of LTC than btc.

pjviitas

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Quote from: niothor on December 07, 2013, 12:24:45 PM

Quote from: psyclon on December 07, 2013, 12:17:48 PM

Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

even the guy holding 10% of all the coins? you cant be serious. there are 5 people holding at least 20-30% of all coins. they could do it any time.

You can't destroy bitcoin with the price , end , point , end.
Even if they control 10% each time they pull a stunt like that they lose a few of their coins , things can't go like that forever.

Bitcoin is already at the point where I don't want to use it as a currency and am thinking of moving to litecoin.

In order for Bitcoin to be usable I need to be able to buy a bunch without breaking the bank and not be afraid to spend them.

If the price of Bitcoin is too high it does 2 things:
1. Forces me to buy small amounts of BTC for a price that I simply can't afford. Buying "what I can afford" kills me in exchange fees.
2. Makes me feel like its too valuable to spend.

Contrary to what some people think, some people want to use BTC as it was intended...to buy and sell shit.

With that being said, everyone who engages in BTC needs to put their speculation hat on once in awile because of it's volatility.

deisik

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Quote from: niothor on December 07, 2013, 12:24:45 PM

Quote from: psyclon on December 07, 2013, 12:17:48 PM

even the guy holding 10% of all the coins? you cant be serious. there are 5 people holding at least 20-30% of all coins. they could do it any time.

You can't destroy bitcoin with the price , end , point , end.
Even if they control 10% each time they pull a stunt like that they lose a few of their coins , things can't go like that forever.

You implicitly assume here that they can only sell their stash. Why would they? It would be logical for them as the earliest adoptors to protect their advantage and competitive edge and at the same time make use of an opportunity to raise some money whenever possible...

Rampion

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Quote from: psyclon on December 06, 2013, 01:17:26 PM

Yes, those who get scared they will lose their millions and dump 10000+ or more at the market, starting an avalanche. I'm convinced that pump and dump has been going on for a long time, the question is, when will they overdo it to kill it all.

This has been debated since 2011 but yet it never happened.

Early adopters with tens of k's of BTC are strong hands. They already witnessed a crash that made BTC lose 96% of its value (2011 - $32 to $2) and they didn't blink. Those who wanted to cash out hundred of thousands of BTC (Like Sirius or Druid) already did it.

They are mostly nerds, geeks and visionaries - not the average joe who invested in BTC his life savings.

Plus, everybody with such holdings knows they cannot just have $100MM on Gox or Bitstamp and have them wired to their personal account. That just cannot happen and they know it.

And FYI: they are already "cashing out". Slowly and gradually. And even if they go crazy and want to cash out in a single big dump, they won't be able to. Maybe you don't know it, but somebody already dumped half a million coins on Gox in 2011, taking the price to $0.01. Do you know what happened? Gox halted trading and then rolled back that order.

niothor

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Quote from: psyclon on December 07, 2013, 12:17:48 PM

Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

even the guy holding 10% of all the coins? you cant be serious. there are 5 people holding at least 20-30% of all coins. they could do it any time.

You can't destroy bitcoin with the price , end , point , end.
Even if they control 10% each time they pull a stunt like that they lose a few of their coins , things can't go like that forever.

psyclon

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Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

even the guy holding 10% of all the coins? you cant be serious. there are 5 people holding at least 20-30% of all coins. they could do it any time.

pjviitas

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on December 07, 2013, 11:11:48 AM

Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

So, you are saying the people with the majority of stakes in this game have nothing to say?
And as for controlling, do you think China will fail because of limiting the use in their country?

People without Bitcoin will simply move to a different currency making Bitcoin worthless...its that simple.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: pjviitas on December 07, 2013, 10:57:59 AM

You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

So, you are saying the people with the majority of stakes in this game have nothing to say?
And as for controlling, do you think China will fail because of limiting the use in their country?

pjviitas

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You are assuming that the early adopters have any say in whether Bitcoin lives or dies.

Bitcoin simply cannot be controlled. Anyone who tries will fail...period.

deisik

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Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 09:59:45 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 09:29:51 AM

Their numbers are minuscule at best. And the "merchants" you're talking about come primarily from gambling industry and bitcoin mining equipment production. I'm not taking into account somebody selling a Tesla car here or buying a house there for bitcoins. These cases are sporadic and far in between...

Why are you putting merchants in brackets? There's more than you think and more are popping up every day. There's quite a few big developments happening here in the UK already. I reckon the rate of businesses accepting bitcoins next year will be increasing quite dramatically. It's early days for Bitcoin/crypotcurrencies, but it's obviously making waves.

I've heard that more than half of bitcoin transactions come from some gambling site, don't quite remember its name (maybe SatoshiDice?). It is not the number of transactions that actually counts but rather volume transacted, but still it is no more than idle talk really unless we have accurate figures at our disposal...

hilariousandco

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Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 09:29:51 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 08:20:56 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 08:02:08 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 07:44:30 AM

Well, people are still buying things with it. In fact, in the longrun I think you could probably argue that it is undervalued. The more and more merchants start accepting it the more valuable it will become. All it'll take is one big company to start accepting it and boom. Gradual or quick mainstream acceptance will push the price up vastly. Let's see what the price of 1BTC is and what it can get you in a years time. Only time will tell on this one. I'm looking forward to the ride.

No, it is not undervalued if the merchants don't accept it right now. Such mode of "reasoning" is called wishful thinking - "an attitude or belief that something you want to happen will happen though it may not happen or unlikely to happen at all". With such volatility I doubt strongly it will occur any time soon if ever ("one big company to start accepting it and boom")...

But merchants do accept it. Such mode of "reasoning" is more optimism than wishful thinking. As I said, only time will tell and I'm enjoying the ride.

Their numbers are minuscule at best. And the "merchants" you're talking about come primarily from gambling industry and bitcoin mining equipment production. I'm not taking into account somebody selling a Tesla car here or buying a house there for bitcoins. These cases are sporadic and far in between...

Why are you putting merchants in brackets? There's more than you think and more are popping up every day. There's quite a few big developments happening here in the UK already. I reckon the rate of businesses accepting bitcoins next year will be increasing quite dramatically. It's early days for Bitcoin/crypotcurrencies, but it's obviously making waves.

deisik

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Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 08:20:56 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 08:02:08 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 07:44:30 AM

Well, people are still buying things with it. In fact, in the longrun I think you could probably argue that it is undervalued. The more and more merchants start accepting it the more valuable it will become. All it'll take is one big company to start accepting it and boom. Gradual or quick mainstream acceptance will push the price up vastly. Let's see what the price of 1BTC is and what it can get you in a years time. Only time will tell on this one. I'm looking forward to the ride.

No, it is not undervalued if the merchants don't accept it right now. Such mode of "reasoning" is called wishful thinking - "an attitude or belief that something you want to happen will happen though it may not happen or unlikely to happen at all". With such volatility I doubt strongly it will occur any time soon if ever ("one big company to start accepting it and boom")...

But merchants do accept it. Such mode of "reasoning" is more optimism than wishful thinking. As I said, only time will tell and I'm enjoying the ride.

Their numbers are minuscule at best. And the "merchants" you're talking about come primarily from gambling industry and bitcoin mining equipment production. I'm not taking into account somebody selling a Tesla car here or buying a house there for bitcoins. These cases are sporadic and far in between...

hilariousandco

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Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 08:02:08 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 07:44:30 AM

Well, people are still buying things with it. In fact, in the longrun I think you could probably argue that it is undervalued. The more and more merchants start accepting it the more valuable it will become. All it'll take is one big company to start accepting it and boom. Gradual or quick mainstream acceptance will push the price up vastly. Let's see what the price of 1BTC is and what it can get you in a years time. Only time will tell on this one. I'm looking forward to the ride.

No, it is not undervalued if the merchants don't accept it right now. Such mode of "reasoning" is called wishful thinking - "an attitude or belief that something you want to happen will happen though it may not happen or unlikely to happen at all". With such volatility I doubt strongly it will occur any time soon if ever ("one big company to start accepting it and boom")...

But merchants do accept it. Such mode of "reasoning" is more optimism than wishful thinking. As I said, only time will tell and I'm enjoying the ride.

niothor

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Quote from: psyclon on December 07, 2013, 04:33:36 AM

so.... what I said may just have happened.

Well , I didn't get destroyed and it wont.
It's the early adopters that have the least desire to destroy this coins. As for the dump and pump scheme , it can happen even without them.

deisik

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Quote from: hilariousandco on December 07, 2013, 07:44:30 AM

Well, people are still buying things with it. In fact, in the longrun I think you could probably argue that it is undervalued. The more and more merchants start accepting it the more valuable it will become. All it'll take is one big company to start accepting it and boom. Gradual or quick mainstream acceptance will push the price up vastly. Let's see what the price of 1BTC is and what it can get you in a years time. Only time will tell on this one. I'm looking forward to the ride.

No, it is not undervalued if the merchants don't accept it right now. Such mode of "reasoning" is called wishful thinking - "an attitude or belief that something you want to happen will happen though it may not happen or unlikely to happen at all". With such volatility I doubt strongly it will occur any time soon if ever ("one big company to start accepting it and boom")...

hilariousandco

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Quote from: deisik on December 07, 2013, 07:25:43 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on December 06, 2013, 02:09:41 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM

Actually i think that is fairly inevitable since bitcoin is far too overvalued currently.
A drop to more sane levels and trending steadily upwards afterwards via organic growth instead of speculation would be a lot healthier imho.

Overvalued in what way? It's only value is in what people are prepared to pay, Sounds like you just want to catch a cheap ride on the bitcoin train back up.

Though what you say may look logical, this logic is still rather questionable. Overvalued means a bubble here, very simple to grasp really. Bubble means there is no real demand for Bitcoin, just speculative one. We can take a real estate bubble as an evident example where people would buy houses to only sell further at higher price, not for the sake of living in. It may actually turn out that 90% of Bitcoin price is pure speculation...

Well, people are still buying things with it. In fact, in the longrun I think you could probably argue that it is undervalued. The more and more merchants start accepting it the more valuable it will become. All it'll take is one big company to start accepting it and boom. Gradual or quick mainstream acceptance will push the price up vastly. Let's see what the price of 1BTC is and what it can get you in a years time. Only time will tell on this one. I'm looking forward to the ride.

deisik

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Quote from: hilariousandco on December 06, 2013, 02:09:41 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM

Actually i think that is fairly inevitable since bitcoin is far too overvalued currently.
A drop to more sane levels and trending steadily upwards afterwards via organic growth instead of speculation would be a lot healthier imho.

Overvalued in what way? It's only value is in what people are prepared to pay, Sounds like you just want to catch a cheap ride on the bitcoin train back up.

Though what you say may look logical, this logic is still rather questionable. Overvalued means a bubble here, very simple to grasp really. Bubble means there is no real demand for Bitcoin, just speculative one. We can take a real estate bubble as an evident example where people would buy houses to only sell further at higher price, not for the sake of living in. It may actually turn out that 90% of Bitcoin price is pure speculation...

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Quote from: psyclon on December 06, 2013, 01:17:26 PM

Yes, those who get scared they will lose their millions and dump 10000+ or more at the market, starting an avalanche. I'm convinced that pump and dump has been going on for a long time, the question is, when will they overdo it to kill it all.

1) Early adopters got scared long ago, several big bubbles ago. If they didn't sell big then, they'll sell even less now.

2) Dishoarding rates for early adopters are probably around 17% per doubling of the price. It's delusional to imagine there are all these people with middle-class fiat net worth and millions and millions in Bitcoin who never thought to sell it in pieces on the way up. You're about two years too late in worrying about this.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Ailure on December 07, 2013, 06:15:43 AM

And from what I heard about early adopters, most of them sell their BTC in batches rather than their whole amount.

Obviously. Anyone with half a brain and lots of BTC would see "Hmm, if i sell x BTC i get y USD, but if i sell 10*x BTC i would get 2*y USD" ...

leetlamer

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Quote from: beetcoin on December 06, 2013, 08:23:14 PM

if anything, i think bitcoin will be destroyed by fear mongers or unrealistic bulls. please fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

If anything, Bitcoin has proven its resiliency through speculative bubbles and crashes. The real threat is if there is a vulnerability or flaw in the protocol or from government crackdown.

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