Bitcoin Will Kill The Income Tax - page 43.

Senor.Bla

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Quote from: deisik on January 22, 2017, 04:49:40 AM

Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 04:43:55 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 22, 2017, 04:34:17 AM

Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 02:32:38 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: abel1337 on January 21, 2017, 12:27:49 PM

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

It might work differently in different countries, but at some point there will be the government telling you, that you have bought a house, a car and a they estimate a price of xxx, but you income statement shows only your income as a nurse of yyy. So how can you afford to pay for it? You can of course provide the receipt of both purchases and the wage your employer payed you, so we do not have to assume, but the number better be reasonable. If there is a gap between the amount you earned and the amount you spent, you better have a good explanation. Most of the time it will be undeclared income.
But back to the point. How can Bitcoin help you in any way in such a situation?

burner2014

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Quote from: deppil on January 22, 2017, 05:08:56 AM

That's why the government is prohibiting the bitcoin development and deployment of bitcoin in their country. because it could hurt them in terms of revenue

Yes for now it hurts in terms of revenue but they can always study how bitcoin can help the economic growth and that is by imposing tax.
There are still tax like business and excise tax and bitcoin for now is immaterial so the government is not yet focusing on it especially here in our country but our government somehow studying on it nowadays.

deppil

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That's why the government is prohibiting the bitcoin development and deployment of bitcoin in their country. because it could hurt them in terms of revenue

deisik

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Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 04:43:55 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 22, 2017, 04:34:17 AM

Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 02:32:38 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: abel1337 on January 21, 2017, 12:27:49 PM

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

Senor.Bla

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Quote from: deisik on January 22, 2017, 04:34:17 AM

Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 02:32:38 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: abel1337 on January 21, 2017, 12:27:49 PM

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less.

deisik

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Quote from: Senor.Bla on January 22, 2017, 02:32:38 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: abel1337 on January 21, 2017, 12:27:49 PM

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Zicadis

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Dump it!!!

Quote from: Dudeperfect on January 21, 2017, 12:05:36 PM

Quote from: izanagi narukami on January 21, 2017, 11:02:31 AM

Depend on country policy for bitcoin. For example, my country still forbid bitcoin but if they still legalize, they will not affect local tax at all since bitcoin have different mechanism based on my constitution.

At least my goverment do for our people's good !

Agree, it depends on the country and also on the treatment of constitution. Eg: In my country bitcoin can be classified as a computer software, currency or even as a commodity under the provisions of various laws but still this assumption is debatable in the courts. I think classification also matters while determination of taxes.

i will have to disagree on this because which ever country we are from our governments get revenue from tax and bitcoin kills it has we deprive it through the decentralized and unregulated system its on.
Am pretty sure china felt the extent bitcoin can control the economy thats why they are trying to have it tamed!

Senor.Bla

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: abel1337 on January 21, 2017, 12:27:49 PM

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway.

Zadicar

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Quote from: wxa7115 on January 22, 2017, 01:18:45 AM

Quote from: just_Alice on January 20, 2017, 12:53:50 PM

Quote from: Hydrogen on January 18, 2017, 07:41:18 AM

I wish people wouldn't support taxation of marijuana so strongly.

Do they realize their legalized weed would be much cheaper if it wasn't heavily taxed?

Bitcoin is the same.

I think you misunderstood the topic. It's not about taxation killing Bitcoin but rather the other way around. With Bitcoin it's easy to evade taxation, but since most people don't use it yet it shouldn't be a big problem for the governments, for a while at least.

Believe me governments take notice of developments like this, it is no wonder why governments are all over tax havens and pressure them to give up banking secrecy or to raise their taxes or change their laws so you have nowhere to run, bitcoin has opened a new way to do it and it is not something they can destroy very easily.

For us money earners we could really saw that tax do really affects us too much but thinking it on a good way it does really help for a nation to grow even more specially when your government using it on a proper way and not on the corrupt ones.Bitcoin could really kill income tax but it would really give effect to the economy of a certain country.

wxa7115

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Quote from: just_Alice on January 20, 2017, 12:53:50 PM

Quote from: Hydrogen on January 18, 2017, 07:41:18 AM

I wish people wouldn't support taxation of marijuana so strongly.

Do they realize their legalized weed would be much cheaper if it wasn't heavily taxed?

Bitcoin is the same.

I think you misunderstood the topic. It's not about taxation killing Bitcoin but rather the other way around. With Bitcoin it's easy to evade taxation, but since most people don't use it yet it shouldn't be a big problem for the governments, for a while at least.

Believe me governments take notice of developments like this, it is no wonder why governments are all over tax havens and pressure them to give up banking secrecy or to raise their taxes or change their laws so you have nowhere to run, bitcoin has opened a new way to do it and it is not something they can destroy very easily.

Theb

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Quote from: chixka000 on January 21, 2017, 11:42:14 PM

Quote from: farhaan on January 21, 2017, 12:47:06 PM

If bitcoin is accepted world wide to buy all the things like US dollar, then only income tax can be avoided.But, it is not the case.Every time, for buying anything, we have to convert bitcoins into fiat and so we have to pay tax for the fiat converted.To my knowledge, we could recharge our mobile and hardly buy products found in some offers online produced by individual persons. It would take a long time for us to avoid income tax on our bitcoin earnings.

Lol, if bitcoin can be accepted in the whole world then i guess a simple peron who has bitcoin can live through his life without using fiat. Eg(shopping,coffee,hotel etc) since btc is widely accepted he can pay all those through btc now the question would be is he evading tax pays?

It depends on the person using the Bitcoin, because it is the man's temptation to avoid and tamper his income's transparency. That is what the government is avoiding because if our world is a Bitcoin friendly worlds than I am sure that all countries will have a lesser national budget. Having a lesser national budget will equal to less development.

chixka000

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Quote from: farhaan on January 21, 2017, 12:47:06 PM

If bitcoin is accepted world wide to buy all the things like US dollar, then only income tax can be avoided.But, it is not the case.Every time, for buying anything, we have to convert bitcoins into fiat and so we have to pay tax for the fiat converted.To my knowledge, we could recharge our mobile and hardly buy products found in some offers online produced by individual persons. It would take a long time for us to avoid income tax on our bitcoin earnings.

Lol, if bitcoin can be accepted in the whole world then i guess a simple peron who has bitcoin can live through his life without using fiat. Eg(shopping,coffee,hotel etc) since btc is widely accepted he can pay all those through btc now the question would be is he evading tax pays?

farhaan

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If bitcoin is accepted world wide to buy all the things like US dollar, then only income tax can be avoided.But, it is not the case.Every time, for buying anything, we have to convert bitcoins into fiat and so we have to pay tax for the fiat converted.To my knowledge, we could recharge our mobile and hardly buy products found in some offers online produced by individual persons. It would take a long time for us to avoid income tax on our bitcoin earnings.

abel1337

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I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Dudeperfect

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Quote from: izanagi narukami on January 21, 2017, 11:02:31 AM

Depend on country policy for bitcoin. For example, my country still forbid bitcoin but if they still legalize, they will not affect local tax at all since bitcoin have different mechanism based on my constitution.

At least my goverment do for our people's good !

Agree, it depends on the country and also on the treatment of constitution. Eg: In my country bitcoin can be classified as a computer software, currency or even as a commodity under the provisions of various laws but still this assumption is debatable in the courts. I think classification also matters while determination of taxes.

Harlot

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Quote from: izanagi narukami on January 21, 2017, 11:02:31 AM

Depend on country policy for bitcoin. For example, my country still forbid bitcoin but if they still legalize, they will not affect local tax at all since bitcoin have different mechanism based on my constitution.

At least my goverment do for our people's good !

I think what he meant was the probability of some Bitcoin users hiding their true Income to lessen their Tax by means of Bitcoin because we all know that Bitcoin Transactions are hard to trace. Even if your provide a Bitcoin address to the government you can create a new one in order for you to hide your income. Definitely Bitcoin can lessen the National Budget of a country.

izanagi narukami

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Depend on country policy for bitcoin. For example, my country still forbid bitcoin but if they still legalize, they will not affect local tax at all since bitcoin have different mechanism based on my constitution.

At least my goverment do for our people's good !

Senor.Bla

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Quote from: bravehearth0319 on January 21, 2017, 08:52:30 AM

For what is happening now to our generation the community in the entire world are most often used the banking system and some in some other countries they used fiat. Where those two are centralized and we know that. So I guess if times come that bitcoin will become the currency of all countries the taxes or income tax will totally disappear.

I am not sure if you understand how taxes (income or any other tax) work, because the government can collect taxes regardless if you use Bitcoin or something else and they will.

bravehearth0319

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For what is happening now to our generation the community in the entire world are most often used the banking system and some in some other countries they used fiat. Where those two are centralized and we know that. So I guess if times come that bitcoin will become the currency of all countries the taxes or income tax will totally disappear.

bitllionaire

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Quote from: n0ne on January 21, 2017, 05:33:17 AM

Quote from: whizter on January 20, 2017, 04:18:29 PM

Quote from: bitbob82 on January 20, 2017, 03:35:58 PM

Quote from: just_Alice on January 20, 2017, 12:53:50 PM

Quote from: Hydrogen on January 18, 2017, 07:41:18 AM

I wish people wouldn't support taxation of marijuana so strongly.

Do they realize their legalized weed would be much cheaper if it wasn't heavily taxed?

Bitcoin is the same.

I think you misunderstood the topic. It's not about taxation killing Bitcoin but rather the other way around. With Bitcoin it's easy to evade taxation, but since most people don't use it yet it shouldn't be a big problem for the governments, for a while at least.

but i think it is already a problem for the government. because government have to turn bitcoin as legal currency first, and after that they can impost tax on bitcoin, because there is not tax on illegal thing. so if government want to impost tax on bitcoin they have to turn bitcoin as legal currency.

i think it is not such a big problem for the government, if government wants they can turn bitcoin as legal currency, and then they can easily put tax on bitcoin

Its not that easy to make bitcoin a legal currency when the country already have a nationalized currency. Governments can make bitcoin as an currency and based upon the transactions happening with their bank accounts in relative to bitcoin taxation can be done.

actually the trend of people about currency is changing, people are taking interest in online shopping, the government have to realize the fact and they should take some positive step about that, so if they can manage they will recognize bitcoin as legal currency and if they cannot do so then they will create their own crypto currency which they will do control.

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