Yes Bitcoin is based on solid math principles. Yes it is constantly adapting and changing. Yes it has first mover advantage and a powerful network effect. Yes a sophisticated infrastructure is being built around it. There is no denying that Bitcoin is in a very advantageous position.
But Bitcoin is still also an implementation, and implementations can be better and they can be worse. While the idea of a decentralized anonymous currency will never die, the way we achieve that will continue to progress. There may come a time when the recommended updates are so fundamental that the only option is to start over. Or there may be disagreement on the right direction to go.
If that happened, the migration to NuCoin would start out slow, then gradually increase at an accelerated pace as the network proved itself. When a critical momentum is reached, people will begin to realize that it could become the dominant coin, and a large and rapid transfer of value between coins will occur. There will be winners, and there will be losers. It would be up to the individual to foresee the changes.
Topic: Bitcoin will one day be superseded by a technically superior NuCoin. What then? - page 3. (Read 7104 times)
December 09, 2013, 05:43:01 AM
December 09, 2013, 05:03:26 AM
My point about stabilizing the value is that, if moderate swings in daily demand (less than a few million) can affect the price by a factor of two, then the number of people putting their earnings--and their trust--into bitcoin is likely to be less.
As important, the other crypto-currencies on the exchanges tend to largely be Bitcoin clones that simply rise and fall with BTC's current market price. Stock exchanges only work if a variety of investment options (index funds, money market funds, derivatives, futures, securities, etc) are available to put a portfolio together. Some of those investment options have to be built for stability, rather than get-rich-quick opportunities.
As important, the other crypto-currencies on the exchanges tend to largely be Bitcoin clones that simply rise and fall with BTC's current market price. Stock exchanges only work if a variety of investment options (index funds, money market funds, derivatives, futures, securities, etc) are available to put a portfolio together. Some of those investment options have to be built for stability, rather than get-rich-quick opportunities.
December 09, 2013, 04:42:29 AM
You frickin' bastard! Now there's no point in reading those damned books. My friend just gave me the first one. 
NuCoin WILL be technically superior, because it won't spoil and entire frickin' trilogy on some random argu-forum!
NuCoin WILL be technically superior, because it won't spoil and entire frickin' trilogy on some random argu-forum!
Oh man, I feel bad now. But I sort of think you guys are just getting my goat. All my friends around here make fun of me for reading those books. (I still think they were excellent and recommend reading them, BTW!).
I'll spoil the BTC trilogy too: it ends at $100,000+ !!
December 09, 2013, 04:22:29 AM
You frickin' bastard! Now there's no point in reading those damned books. My friend just gave me the first one.
NuCoin WILL be technically superior, because it won't spoil and entire frickin' trilogy on some random argu-forum!
NuCoin WILL be technically superior, because it won't spoil and entire frickin' trilogy on some random argu-forum!
December 09, 2013, 04:16:51 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect.
Can this new alt-coin also vacuum my floors and cook me dinner? That would make it the superiorest.
Sorry, just having fun with you
. But, isn't this impossible? You either legislate its value by fiat (and live with the problems of fiat money) or you let the free-market figure it out (with a series of booms and busts). If we all *know* the value will just go up and can't come down, then we'd all throw everything we have into it right? Then we'd have one big super bubble!
I do marketing, where everything is possible. Software people work on code, where nothing new is possible until it's so well established in the marketplace that they have no hope of winning the argument.
To maintain a stable, less volatile value, one must establish a track record and mechanism as clear and convincing proof of U.S. Dollar-like stability. How is that done? One mechanism is to create a foundation (like the Bitcoin Foundation) that gets a parallel mine large enough both to provide a reserve and to market the new currency. Mining difficulty (or reward amount) is adjusted daily, reduced only after there is an increase in price/demand. The Altcoin Foundation establishes a clear, realistic target price and sets buy orders 2% below that price, and sell orders 5% over it. This prevents those price spikes that draw in speculators and drive away those interested in a good long term investment.
There are several other techniques, like adjusting the final mining quantity to match market demand automatically. Of course, most of these things have to be done when the altcoin is created, because they cannot be retrofit into the software after the fact.
Have you read the Hunger Games? At the end of the 3rd book, the rebels overthrow the elite. The woman leading the rebels wants to have "just one more hunger games" where only the old elite and their children participate (and then the hunger games will be over, "we promise").
Katniss Everdeen shoots an arrow through her heart.
dude, why did you have to spoil it for us?! now it's time to play the anger games, with you..
lol sorry beetcoin! But research does show that you actually enjoy a story more if you know the plot line beforehand. Shakespeare always told the audience what would happen before you got to see it.
December 09, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect.
Can this new alt-coin also vacuum my floors and cook me dinner? That would make it the superiorest.
Sorry, just having fun with you
. But, isn't this impossible? You either legislate its value by fiat (and live with the problems of fiat money) or you let the free-market figure it out (with a series of booms and busts). If we all *know* the value will just go up and can't come down, then we'd all throw everything we have into it right? Then we'd have one big super bubble!
I do marketing, where everything is possible. Software people work on code, where nothing new is possible until it's so well established in the marketplace that they have no hope of winning the argument.
To maintain a stable, less volatile value, one must establish a track record and mechanism as clear and convincing proof of U.S. Dollar-like stability. How is that done? One mechanism is to create a foundation (like the Bitcoin Foundation) that gets a parallel mine large enough both to provide a reserve and to market the new currency. Mining difficulty (or reward amount) is adjusted daily, reduced only after there is an increase in price/demand. The Altcoin Foundation establishes a clear, realistic target price and sets buy orders 2% below that price, and sell orders 5% over it. This prevents those price spikes that draw in speculators and drive away those interested in a good long term investment.
There are several other techniques, like adjusting the final mining quantity to match market demand automatically. Of course, most of these things have to be done when the altcoin is created, because they cannot be retrofit into the software after the fact.
Have you read the Hunger Games? At the end of the 3rd book, the rebels overthrow the elite. The woman leading the rebels wants to have "just one more hunger games" where only the old elite and their children participate (and then the hunger games will be over, "we promise").
Katniss Everdeen shoots an arrow through her heart.
dude, why did you have to spoil it for us?! now it's time to play the anger games, with you..
December 09, 2013, 04:10:42 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect.
Can this new alt-coin also vacuum my floors and cook me dinner? That would make it the superiorest.
Sorry, just having fun with you
. But, isn't this impossible? You either legislate its value by fiat (and live with the problems of fiat money) or you let the free-market figure it out (with a series of booms and busts). If we all *know* the value will just go up and can't come down, then we'd all throw everything we have into it right? Then we'd have one big super bubble!
I do marketing, where everything is possible. Software people work on code, where nothing new is possible until it's so well established in the marketplace that they have no hope of winning the argument.
To maintain a stable, less volatile value, one must establish a track record and mechanism as clear and convincing proof of U.S. Dollar-like stability. How is that done? One mechanism is to create a foundation (like the Bitcoin Foundation) that gets a parallel mine large enough both to provide a reserve and to market the new currency. Mining difficulty (or reward amount) is adjusted daily, reduced only after there is an increase in price/demand. The Altcoin Foundation establishes a clear, realistic target price and sets buy orders 2% below that price, and sell orders 5% over it. This prevents those price spikes that draw in speculators and drive away those interested in a good long term investment.
There are several other techniques, like adjusting the final mining quantity to match market demand automatically. Of course, most of these things have to be done when the altcoin is created, because they cannot be retrofit into the software after the fact.
Have you read the Hunger Games? At the end of the 3rd book, the rebels overthrow the elite. The woman leading the rebels wants to have "just one more hunger games" where only the old elite and their children participate (and then the hunger games will be over, "we promise").
Katniss Everdeen shoots an arrow through her heart.
December 09, 2013, 04:00:14 AM
i'm thinking the OP missed the gravy train and wants to make up for it now.
I am skeptic about Bitcoin as investment, in case you haven't noticed
(Are skeptics welcome in this forum?)It seems I am not expressing myself clearly. When European countries junked their currencies for the Euro, each State took care to swap the old (soon to be worthless) currencies for Euros so that owners would not suffer any loss. Other countries did the same when they replaced hyperinflated currencies for new money.
But there is no entity that would offer to do that service for Bitcoin, if (OK, let's say it is onlly a possibility) and when it is replaced by something else. Sure, Bitcoin owners would want NuCoin to be just an evolution of Bitcoin, preserving its blockchains and hence the value of their coins; but why would the NuCoin community want to do that?
why are you comparing bitcoin to currencies? there is no precedent for anything like bitcoins. i've yet to hear any solid reasons as to why nucoin or any other cryptocurrency could take BTC's place. if bitcoin becomes ubiquitous, there will be more room for another cryptocurrency, but you have not brought up any real reason why you think bitcoin can't succeed, and new cryptocurrency will take its place.
December 09, 2013, 03:12:29 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect.
Can this new alt-coin also vacuum my floors and cook me dinner? That would make it the superiorest.
Sorry, just having fun with you
. But, isn't this impossible? You either legislate its value by fiat (and live with the problems of fiat money) or you let the free-market figure it out (with a series of booms and busts). If we all *know* the value will just go up and can't come down, then we'd all throw everything we have into it right? Then we'd have one big super bubble!
I do marketing, where everything is possible. Software people work on code, where nothing new is possible until it's so well established in the marketplace that they have no hope of winning the argument.
To maintain a stable, less volatile value, one must establish a track record and mechanism as clear and convincing proof of U.S. Dollar-like stability. How is that done? One mechanism is to create a foundation (like the Bitcoin Foundation) that gets a parallel mine large enough both to provide a reserve and to market the new currency. Mining difficulty (or reward amount) is adjusted daily, reduced only after there is an increase in price/demand. The Altcoin Foundation establishes a clear, realistic target price and sets buy orders 2% below that price, and sell orders 5% over it. This prevents those price spikes that draw in speculators and drive away those interested in a good long term investment.
There are several other techniques, like adjusting the final mining quantity to match market demand automatically. Of course, most of these things have to be done when the altcoin is created, because they cannot be retrofit into the software after the fact.
December 09, 2013, 03:08:36 AM
i'm thinking the OP missed the gravy train and wants to make up for it now.
I am skeptic about Bitcoin as investment, in case you haven't noticed
(Are skeptics welcome in this forum?)It seems I am not expressing myself clearly. When European countries junked their currencies for the Euro, each State took care to swap the old (soon to be worthless) currencies for Euros so that owners would not suffer any loss. Other countries did the same when they replaced hyperinflated currencies for new money.
But there is no entity that would offer to do that service for Bitcoin, if (OK, let's say it is onlly a possibility) and when it is replaced by something else. Sure, Bitcoin owners would want NuCoin to be just an evolution of Bitcoin, preserving its blockchains and hence the value of their coins; but why would the NuCoin community want to do that?
December 09, 2013, 02:32:43 AM
i'm thinking the OP missed the gravy train and wants to make up for it now.
And there are still many seats left on this train. Bitcoin gives everyone a second chance.
December 09, 2013, 02:26:10 AM
i'm thinking the OP missed the gravy train and wants to make up for it now.
December 09, 2013, 02:05:33 AM
There is also the possibility of jump starting nucoin by importing unspent btc from the bitcoin blockchain. So nucoin wouldn't necessarily destroy bitcoin. It might be more like moving from ounces of gold to grams of gold. Everyone would still keep the value of their money.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, will probably allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, will probably allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
Great points. Absolutely, but I see the power being in the hands of the miners and not just the investors(ones with most btc) but I would hope they would have reason to preserve the blockchain. Also our current ASICs would not work if this NuCoin is running a on a different encryption type correct? So it may actually be a problem depending on some variables.
December 09, 2013, 02:04:59 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect.
Can this new alt-coin also vacuum my floors and cook me dinner? That would make it the superiorest.
Sorry, just having fun with you
. But, isn't this impossible? You either legislate its value by fiat (and live with the problems of fiat money) or you let the free-market figure it out (with a series of booms and busts). If we all *know* the value will just go up and can't come down, then we'd all throw everything we have into it right? Then we'd have one big super bubble!
December 09, 2013, 01:56:18 AM
To be far superior, a currency would only need to have a feature that stopped the sudden drops that make holding on to it over the long haul such a scary prospect. Long haul holding is exactly what's needed for a high market cap.
In most cases, Bitcoin can, with near unanimous support, implement a change that is proven effective by some new altcoin. That is, in fact, one of the reasons that altcoins are so interesting to many Bitcoiners.
In most cases, Bitcoin can, with near unanimous support, implement a change that is proven effective by some new altcoin. That is, in fact, one of the reasons that altcoins are so interesting to many Bitcoiners.
December 09, 2013, 01:55:32 AM
There is also the possibility of jump starting nucoin by importing unspent btc from the bitcoin blockchain. So nucoin wouldn't necessarily destroy bitcoin. It might be more like moving from ounces of gold to grams of gold. Everyone would still keep the value of their money.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
+0.5
TL/DR: The blockchain will be preserved.
December 09, 2013, 01:51:30 AM
There is also the possibility of jump starting nucoin by importing unspent btc from the bitcoin blockchain. So nucoin wouldn't necessarily destroy bitcoin. It might be more like moving from ounces of gold to grams of gold. Everyone would still keep the value of their money.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, will probably allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
Even if the designers of nucoin didn't like this idea, it still might happen. The people with a big investment in Bitcoin could just create an alt of nucoin using the cool new algorithm that gives nucoin it's advantage. But they would also incorporate the btc blockchain in this nucoin 2.0, maybe even allowing you to create nucoin2.0 coins by sending btc to an unspendable address with a message that includes your nucoin2.0 address.
The point being: Any new algorithm can be either added to the bitcoin protocol or, in worst case, will probably allow bitcoins to be migrated to the new protocol.
December 09, 2013, 01:50:42 AM
Bitcoin cannot claim eternal divine perfection, so inevitably there will arise a "NuCoin" that has the same nice properties but is technically better in some respect -- and will therefore replace Bitcoin as the preferred medium of payment for internet commerce.
What will happen to the Bitcoin then? Owners of course would like to swap them for equal worth of NuCoins. But who will agree to the swap?
What will happen to the Bitcoin then? Owners of course would like to swap them for equal worth of NuCoins. But who will agree to the swap?
I'm sure there are dozens of forums superior to Craigslist from a technical perspective. Yet Craigslist is the website with the 11th greatest traffic in the US, so it remains on top. Craigslist is a stupidly simple website... yet it has lots of traffic, and that perpetuates it's popularity. Furthermore, Craigslist's users are not financially bound to support it-- anyone who owns a significant amount of Bitcoin is.
Of course Bitcoin cannot claim "divine perfection," but it does have a first to market advantage. And given the type of painful transition a major switch would be, there would have to be a far superior replacement currency.
I'm curious (no sarcasm intended):
What new, superior quality will this new money have?
Note: I believe the "swap" you speak of would dictate a centralized authority (automatically making the new currency inferior), unless it was built off the existing Bitcoin blockchain.
Great post Peter R.
December 09, 2013, 01:49:36 AM
Bitcoin will be eclipsed one day by a different form of currency I can guarantee that...its just a matter of when.
December 09, 2013, 01:47:55 AM
It shouldn't be any surprise that the two most highly capitalized altcoins (Bitcoin and Litecoin) have both developed entirely from the community itself with no premine and a wide opportunity for the average computer user to enter.
If some "NuCoin" is going to overtake either one, I believe that it will have to do so with a very long nearly-free period of widespread mining by true believers. Even making use of all of the new technology for improving performance, security, and efficiency, a competitor must be an order of magnitude better in one way, or noticeably better in several ways.
For my part, I've been working on built in mechanisms to reduce the volatility and uncertainty in a new altcoin. Even with that improvement, it would be difficult to get the new currency established.
If some "NuCoin" is going to overtake either one, I believe that it will have to do so with a very long nearly-free period of widespread mining by true believers. Even making use of all of the new technology for improving performance, security, and efficiency, a competitor must be an order of magnitude better in one way, or noticeably better in several ways.
For my part, I've been working on built in mechanisms to reduce the volatility and uncertainty in a new altcoin. Even with that improvement, it would be difficult to get the new currency established.
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