Bitcoin will probably be dead within 6 years. - page 2.

Bytas

sr. member

Activity: 323

Merit: 250

Quote from: disclaimer201 on December 01, 2013, 10:25:05 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: empoweoqwj on December 01, 2013, 12:21:21 AM

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.

From what I understand, it's something like a torrent, only more valuable because everyone's bitcoin balance is at stake. If one copy exists, someone can modify it and nobody will know the difference. If thousands of copies exist, the doctored version can easily be identified.

Having to download 10 gigabytes of pseudorandom shit isn't very appealing to newcomers, but it's necessary if you wish to use the official wallet software. If you're not using the official client, and especially if you're using an "e-wallet," best of luck. Might as well give an envelope stuffed with cash to a homeless stranger and ask them politely to keep it safe for you.

To answer the thread, bitcoin will not last long if the price continues to increase as it has been. No matter how many people say, "Oh, it's divisible to 8 decimal places," the fact remains that getting 0.00000001 of something is thoroughly disheartening.

Oh please, kids download dozens of movies nowadays that are bigger than 10Gigs, each and every day. It's a non-issue and will be resolved by growing diskspace and the reduction of blockchain data to a necessary amount. Please come back with this subject when the blockchain is 100TB and 100TB harddisks haven't been invented.

Well that's a pile of horsecrap.
How can you even compare downloading a movie (which you download to watch, then are free to delete), to having to Sync for about 8 to 10 hours before you can start using bitcoin, then being stuck with an ever growing piece of data on your harddrive that you can't delete, because then you wouldn't be able to use bitcoin?
blockchain pruning is something that has been around for ages now and it still hasn't happened yet....

Interized

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Coolness: ∞

Quote from: Elwar on December 02, 2013, 06:19:29 AM

Quote from: niothor on December 02, 2013, 02:48:48 AM

Wow , 3 pages of a thread that shouldn't have existed if the Op would have read the Bitcoin wiki.

I am so disappointed by the amount of people who replied to this thread who did not give the obvious answer by Satoshi himself when he created Bitcoin addressing this very issue.

Quote

It is possible to verify payments without running a full network node. A user only needs to keep
a copy of the block headers of the longest proof-of-work chain, which he can get by querying
network nodes until he's convinced he has the longest chain, and obtain the Merkle branch
linking the transaction to the block it's timestamped in. He can't check the transaction for
himself, but by linking it to a place in the chain, he can see that a network node has accepted it,
and blocks added after it further confirm the network has accepted it.

As such, the verification is reliable as long as honest nodes control the network, but is more
vulnerable if the network is overpowered by an attacker. While network nodes can verify
transactions for themselves, the simplified method can be fooled by an attacker's fabricated
transactions for as long as the attacker can continue to overpower the network. One strategy to
protect against this would be to accept alerts from network nodes when they detect an invalid
block, prompting the user's software to download the full block and alerted transactions to
confirm the inconsistency. Businesses that receive frequent payments will probably still want to
run their own nodes for more independent security and quicker verification.

I invite all readers and posters of this thread to read about this thing called Bitcoin:
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

This was my thoughts exactly, why on earth does this thread continue?

prezbo

sr. member

Activity: 430

Merit: 250

So, 3 pages and no one mentions that blocks are limited in size? Once blocks are full there is no 10-fold size increase anymore.

wumpus

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1022

No Maps for These Territories

Quote from: DeluxBoy on December 15, 2013, 07:17:20 AM

This is indeed somewhat of a problem. Undecided

I keep my btc in blockchain.info because I don't have that many to make it worth downloading the local wallet.

Then use a SPV wallet such as multibit instead of running a full node. It isn't by accident that is the default wallet that is recommended on bitcoin.org.

Storing the block chain only matters to people that want to run a full node.

Interized

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Coolness: ∞

Quote from: DeluxBoy on December 15, 2013, 07:17:20 AM

This is indeed somewhat of a problem. Undecided

I keep my btc in blockchain.info because I don't have that many to make it worth downloading the local wallet.

Do you need to download all of the internet too? It can easily be looked up and a 1TB HD is cheap.

DeluxBoy

newbie

Activity: 30

Merit: 0

This is indeed somewhat of a problem. Undecided

I keep my btc in blockchain.info because I don't have that many to make it worth downloading the local wallet.

Interized

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Coolness: ∞

Quote from: Skybuck on December 01, 2013, 12:14:09 AM

Currently the database seems to 10 fold each 1.5 years or so.

11 GB today.
100 GB 1.5 years from now
1 TB 3 years from now
10 TB 4.5 years from now.
100 TB 6 years from now.
1 PB 7.5 years from now.
10 PB 9 years from now.
100 PB 10.5 years from now.

Nobody can predict the future, though there are some trends.

Harddisk size will probably not keep up with the database size.
Raid systems will also fall short a few years later.

Average hard drive today 500GB-1TB+
10-100TB 1.5 years from now
etc

Nobody can predict the future, though there are some trends.

Interized

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Coolness: ∞

OP assumes everyone who uses currency wants to educate them self further of how money works.

OP is dead wrong.

Bitcoin will continue because we have the option.

New comers do not need to download the block chain, that defeats the purpose of BTC.

It is about OPTIONS.

kwoody

sr. member

Activity: 454

Merit: 250

Technology and Women. Amazing.

in 1.5 years anybody involved with bitcoin to the point that they're willing to operate as a node, will likely be able to afford vast amounts of space. I spent 0.4 on a 500gb ssd and the current blockchain doesn't even put a dent in it. while conventional hard disks aren't growing very large in size as time goes on (i think largest commercial drive right now is 4 or 5TB?), the size of ssd's are growing rapidly. just a couple years ago ssds were available in pretty much 3 sizes. 32gb/64gb/128gb, now there are 2tb+ ssds. in 6 years, bitcoin will either fail or the only nodes necessary to run will be mining pools, the operators of which have made fortunes by now with the 3%ish they've been taking all these years, along with tx fee bonuses. it's also 6 years to figure out a solution to the issue, such as p2p distribution as others have mentioned.

tvbcof

legendary

Activity: 4760

Merit: 1283

Quote from: disclaimer201 on December 03, 2013, 12:09:35 AM

Let me put it this way. If someone wants to use bitcoins for long-term storage of value they should be interested in the technical side of things. After all, they might put a lot of money into it. If we are talking about spending some coins for a coffee paid with a qr code, an altcoin and an android wallet will do. People will never use Bitcoin to buy anything smaller than a car or a house, or a yacht. It is not for everyone, just like gold is held only by 1-2 % of the population. You will never carry gold around to buy a t-shirt. But you will have to buy a computer with a fairly large harddisk and install the client. If you can't or don't want to have to deal with, Bitcoin is not for you. On that note, DGC might be for you. It has a wonderful android wallet. :-)

I'm fairly confident that a no-bullshit trusted cypto-currency will develop. Trust, to me and probably others like me, means that it's function is not dependent on large corporations but rather is highly distributed and autonomous. If Bitcoin proper does not develop into such a thing than something else will, and will probably leave some of Bitcoin's design deficiencies behind. I'd prefer that Bitcoin is the one which takes on this role since I already have a boat-load of them, but it might actually be better if Bitcoin ends up trying to be everyone's coffee money (where it is even less competitive than as a reserve currency) and ends it's life as simply the match that got the fire started.

disclaimer201

legendary

Activity: 1526

Merit: 1001

Let me put it this way. If someone wants to use bitcoins for long-term storage of value they should be interested in the technical side of things. After all, they might put a lot of money into it. If we are talking about spending some coins for a coffee paid with a qr code, an altcoin and an android wallet will do. People will never use Bitcoin to buy anything smaller than a car or a house, or a yacht. It is not for everyone, just like gold is held only by 1-2 % of the population. You will never carry gold around to buy a t-shirt. But you will have to buy a computer with a fairly large harddisk and install the client. If you can't or don't want to have to deal with, Bitcoin is not for you. On that note, DGC might be for you. It has a wonderful android wallet. :-)

pening

sr. member

Activity: 245

Merit: 250

Quote from: disclaimer201 on December 01, 2013, 10:25:05 PM

Oh please, kids download dozens of movies nowadays that are bigger than 10Gigs, each and every day. It's a non-issue and will be resolved by growing diskspace and the reduction of blockchain data to a necessary amount. Please come back with this subject when the blockchain is 100TB and 100TB harddisks haven't been invented.

Yeah, kids who have time to download and watch multi-gigs of movies. And don't have to worry about bandwidth or disk space, in other words techie kids. to the other 99% of the population it might be an issue. I myself balked at the idea of having to download all that (restricted bandwidth and taking up space on my small SSD) 9 mths ago so abandoned the reference client. fortunately l i found Multibit otherwise i may have stayed away.

In other words do not assume that because its not an issue to you that it wont be an issue to others. That attitude in general will lead to wider public not accepting and adopting the technology, just how they haven't accepted desktop Linux despite all the advantages. When a friend version came along, in the form of Android, they happily lapped it up. Technical issues must be out of sight for the vast majority of the public, they don't want to deal with that stuff.

Coinbanker

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

bitcoin supporter

Thank you Elwar,

Elwar

legendary

Activity: 3598

Merit: 2386

Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: niothor on December 02, 2013, 02:48:48 AM

Wow , 3 pages of a thread that shouldn't have existed if the Op would have read the Bitcoin wiki.

I am so disappointed by the amount of people who replied to this thread who did not give the obvious answer by Satoshi himself when he created Bitcoin addressing this very issue.

Quote

It is possible to verify payments without running a full network node. A user only needs to keep
a copy of the block headers of the longest proof-of-work chain, which he can get by querying
network nodes until he's convinced he has the longest chain, and obtain the Merkle branch
linking the transaction to the block it's timestamped in. He can't check the transaction for
himself, but by linking it to a place in the chain, he can see that a network node has accepted it,
and blocks added after it further confirm the network has accepted it.

As such, the verification is reliable as long as honest nodes control the network, but is more
vulnerable if the network is overpowered by an attacker. While network nodes can verify
transactions for themselves, the simplified method can be fooled by an attacker's fabricated
transactions for as long as the attacker can continue to overpower the network. One strategy to
protect against this would be to accept alerts from network nodes when they detect an invalid
block, prompting the user's software to download the full block and alerted transactions to
confirm the inconsistency. Businesses that receive frequent payments will probably still want to
run their own nodes for more independent security and quicker verification.

I invite all readers and posters of this thread to read about this thing called Bitcoin:
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

niothor

hero member

Activity: 826

Merit: 501

in defi we trust

Wow , 3 pages of a thread that shouldn't have existed if the Op would have read the Bitcoin wiki.

anti-scam

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 251

COINECT

Quote from: revans on December 01, 2013, 03:14:38 PM

Quote from: anti-scam on December 01, 2013, 03:07:18 PM

Quote from: revans on December 01, 2013, 11:48:56 AM

Quote from: anti-scam on December 01, 2013, 11:43:16 AM

Mini blockchain and blockchain pruning

Quit posting long discredited arguments with provocative titles. It makes you seem stupid.

Which greatly diminishes the security of the blockchain.

The only real solution would be for transactions verified against a subset of the blockhcain to have some degree of reversibility.

Explain how either solution diminishes the security of the blockchain.

Allow me to rephrase.

The solutions greatly diminish the integrity of a certain class of Bitcoin transactions.

I'm genuinely interested. Do you have any links to share?

disclaimer201

legendary

Activity: 1526

Merit: 1001

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: empoweoqwj on December 01, 2013, 12:21:21 AM

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.

From what I understand, it's something like a torrent, only more valuable because everyone's bitcoin balance is at stake. If one copy exists, someone can modify it and nobody will know the difference. If thousands of copies exist, the doctored version can easily be identified.

Having to download 10 gigabytes of pseudorandom shit isn't very appealing to newcomers, but it's necessary if you wish to use the official wallet software. If you're not using the official client, and especially if you're using an "e-wallet," best of luck. Might as well give an envelope stuffed with cash to a homeless stranger and ask them politely to keep it safe for you.

To answer the thread, bitcoin will not last long if the price continues to increase as it has been. No matter how many people say, "Oh, it's divisible to 8 decimal places," the fact remains that getting 0.00000001 of something is thoroughly disheartening.

Oh please, kids download dozens of movies nowadays that are bigger than 10Gigs, each and every day. It's a non-issue and will be resolved by growing diskspace and the reduction of blockchain data to a necessary amount. Please come back with this subject when the blockchain is 100TB and 100TB harddisks haven't been invented.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: Skybuck on December 01, 2013, 12:29:33 AM

Bitcoin is supposed to be a p2p system, using the web or any other central point for download or transaction-only-interaction pretty much defeats the original idea, not that that will stop anybody from using it apperently.

The p2p thing is more about user functionality. Even if only large corporations or states run nodes, they will be competitive with each other. Though there will be some centralization, it won't foster collusion and monopolization.

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: anti-scam on December 01, 2013, 03:07:18 PM

Quote from: revans on December 01, 2013, 11:48:56 AM

Quote from: anti-scam on December 01, 2013, 11:43:16 AM

Mini blockchain and blockchain pruning

Quit posting long discredited arguments with provocative titles. It makes you seem stupid.

Which greatly diminishes the security of the blockchain.

The only real solution would be for transactions verified against a subset of the blockhcain to have some degree of reversibility.

Explain how either solution diminishes the security of the blockchain.

Allow me to rephrase.

The solutions greatly diminish the integrity of a certain class of Bitcoin transactions.

anti-scam

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 251

COINECT

Quote from: revans on December 01, 2013, 11:48:56 AM

Quote from: anti-scam on December 01, 2013, 11:43:16 AM

Mini blockchain and blockchain pruning

Quit posting long discredited arguments with provocative titles. It makes you seem stupid.

Which greatly diminishes the security of the blockchain.

The only real solution would be for transactions verified against a subset of the blockhcain to have some degree of reversibility.

Explain how either solution diminishes the security of the blockchain.

Topic: Bitcoin will probably be dead within 6 years. - page 2. (Read 10242 times)