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Topic: Bitcoin will probably be dead within 6 years. - page 3. (Read 10238 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Mini blockchain and blockchain pruning

Quit posting long discredited arguments with provocative titles. It makes you seem stupid.


Which greatly diminishes the security of the blockchain.


The only real solution would be for transactions verified against a subset of the blockhcain to have some degree of reversibility.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
COINECT
Mini blockchain and blockchain pruning

Quit posting long discredited arguments with provocative titles. It makes you seem stupid.
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
Call me when there is a fully functional UTXO implementation in place. So far all I see is a lot of chat, and a demand for payment to do the work.
Currently 0.8x qt nodes calculate their own UTXO when downloading blockchain.
Flipping the chain is more question whether UTXO changes can be calculated and verified in miliseconds so blocks can propagate fast.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Someone was working on flipping the blockchain, apparently design phase is over but there were no updates since 4 months. Two years ago there were estimates that 90% of blockchain can be pruned.


Heh, why not just prune it all once a month and then anyone can do any transaction they please.
Fliping the blockchain means doing proof of work on UTXO (it will be merged minned) so that new nodes won't have to download whole blockchain to verify new transactions. Currently 0.8x qt nodes calculate their own UTXO when downloading blockchain, with flipped chain POWed UTXO can be downloaded directly after downloading blockheaders. Of course some well budgeted organisations (NSA) will prefer to have complete record of all transations (and some good blockexplorer available to employees).

a distributed blockchain seems definitely the best option to me. probably the know-how is already there (torrents etc.).
then even who shares his bandwidth and diskspace could earn a slice of the fees pie.
Bandwidth is more expensive than storage.


Call me when there is a fully functional UTXO implementation in place. So far all I see is a lot of chat, and a demand for payment to do the work.
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
Someone was working on flipping the blockchain, apparently design phase is over but there were no updates since 4 months. Two years ago there were estimates that 90% of blockchain can be pruned.


Heh, why not just prune it all once a month and then anyone can do any transaction they please.
Fliping the blockchain means doing proof of work on UTXO (it will be merged minned) so that new nodes won't have to download whole blockchain to verify new transactions. Currently 0.8x qt nodes calculate their own UTXO when downloading blockchain, with flipped chain POWed UTXO can be downloaded directly after downloading blockheaders. Of course some well budgeted organisations (NSA) will prefer to have complete record of all transations (and some good blockexplorer available to employees).

a distributed blockchain seems definitely the best option to me. probably the know-how is already there (torrents etc.).
then even who shares his bandwidth and diskspace could earn a slice of the fees pie.
Bandwidth is more expensive than storage. I could see nodes storing UTXO and random old blocks (software with slider on how many old blocks do you want to retain)  if flipping the chain was impossible for some reason.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
a distributed blockchain seems definitely the best option to me. probably the know-how is already there (torrents etc.).
then even who shares his bandwidth and diskspace could earn a slice of the fees pie.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Someone was working on flipping the blockchain, apparently design phase is over but there were no updates since 4 months. Two years ago there were estimates that 90% of blockchain can be pruned.


Heh, why not just prune it all once a month and then anyone can do any transaction they please.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
I think there is a good chance that bitcoin might be gone in 6 years but I don't think it's because the blockchain.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.


Because you cretin, if it became the default for people to verify against a subset of the blockchain, then that situation would very quickly be exploited.

Are you having a bad day or something?


It just amazes me that people who are betting their financial future on Bitcoin know so little about it.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
What doesn't kill you only makes you sicker!
Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.


Because you cretin, if it became the default for people to verify against a subset of the blockchain, then that situation would very quickly be exploited.

Are you having a bad day or something?
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
Someone was working on flipping the blockchain, apparently design phase is over but there were no updates since 4 months. Two years ago there were estimates that 90% of blockchain can be pruned.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.


Because you cretin, if it became the default for people to verify against a subset of the blockchain, then that situation would very quickly be exploited.
b!z
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1010
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
This indeed is something the coders have to think about! However as more people are going to use bitcoin the value will keep rising, I think transactions will become more behind the 0.0. Which is the benefit of having a completely digital currency. However a wallet like multibit which calculates the bitcoin amount compared to the USD value would be a must have for daily use.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
it's nice point one must find a solution to this problem.

and "we" will.
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 500
Quote from: dancupid link=topic=354103.msg3789631#msg3789631 date=1385876782
[size=18pt
Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.[/size]

legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Read the title of this thread, now I'm seeking a tree.

full member
Activity: 385
Merit: 110
Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.

Good point, however, people may start to use bitcoin more and more and more, still leading to some additional doubling of volumes Smiley which could still be somewhat problematic. Perhaps even 10 folds.

Perhaps games will start to use bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend it because it would make bitcoin explode almost literally, but we are all powerless to stop it.
If such a scenerio happens we could be seeing a 100x fold, 1000x fold or even 1000000 fold pretty much overnight. That'll be the end of it quite quickly.
Huge ammounts of transactions happen in some games. It would probably dwarf bitcoin easily.

In the real world, maybe transactions don't happen that much, at least the usual stuff, like groceries, buying a pizza, filling the car tank gas, then again there are also the financial world and such... which could have high volumes... imagine all of that switching to bitcoin ? SmileySmileySmiley

Yes there are all sorts of extra factors - but there is a tipping point somewhere were either Moore's law takes over and the blockchain (relatively speaking) gets smaller and smaller, or the computing resources available to run bitcoin become too expensive and bitcoin fails. (Changing the hash algorithm is apperently possible, but are there any quantum safe hashing algorithms ? however all bitcoin accounts/addresses may be cracked and perhaps history changed).

Ultimately though the blockchain cannot continue to grow exponentially - at which point price performance of computing makes it easier and easier to run bitcoin (blockchain etc)

Perhaps quantum harddisks will come to exist, perhaps they can store much more information Wink

Perhaps quantum computers can keep running bitcoin, or perhaps they will crack bitcoin and then it spectacularly fails Smiley (apperently hash algorithm can be changed but are there any quantum safe hashing algorithms ? rsa/bitcoin accounts/addresses would be cracked/plundered ? or perhaps does that curve algorithm protect against quantum attacks ? Wink blockchain could probably be faked/recomputed though could be detected Wink)

Another good point you make, even with a distributed database, it cannot continue to grow exponentially, unless maybe quantum computers can handle exponential growth ? Wink

When bitcoin runs out of harddisk space it will probaby stop functioning and it will simply crash/fail like you say.

However some people may still have some harddisk space so then perhaps it will continue to function for those lucky few Wink

I think in reality big corporations like google, microsoft, facebook might take over and store the blockchain on their harddisks which they have plenty of.

Thus bitcoin might turn into a client/server system which pretty much make it the biggest fail ever Smiley it will happily continue running, but it's original idea is d.e.a.d Smiley

LOL, but then the funny part is... even google/microsoft/facebook will have the exponential growth and eventually will have to give up ? Smiley
hero member
Activity: 955
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.

Good point, however, people may start to use bitcoin more and more and more, still leading to some additional doubling of volumes Smiley which could still be somewhat problematic. Perhaps even 10 folds.

Perhaps games will start to use bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend it because it would make bitcoin explode almost literally, but we are all powerless to stop it.
If such a scenerio happens we could be seeing a 100x fold, 1000x fold or even 1000000 fold pretty much overnight. That'll be the end of it quite quickly.
Huge ammounts of transactions happen in some games. It would probably dwarf bitcoin easily.

In the real world, maybe transactions don't happen that much, at least the usual stuff, like groceries, buying a pizza, filling the car tank gas, then again there are also the financial world and such... which could have high volumes... imagine all of that switching to bitcoin ? SmileySmileySmiley

Yes there are all sorts of extra factors - but there is a tipping point somewhere were either Moore's law takes over and the blockchain (relatively speaking) gets smaller and smaller, or the computing resources available to run bitcoin become too expensive and bitcoin fails.

Ultimately though the blockchain cannot continue to grow exponentially - at which point price performance of computing makes it easier and easier to run bitcoin (blockchain etc)
full member
Activity: 385
Merit: 110
It "utilizes" a server, in a sense, to provide small parts of the blockchain. However, it doesn't have to trust the server, due to SPV verification.

Ok this is very funny, this could explain some double spents/attacks. Satoshi admitted this mode isn't too safe:

""the verification is reliable as long as honest nodes control the network".

"
This is a concern in a situation where an SPV client is subjected to a double-spend attack by somebody who controls its network connection. For example, suppose you are at a wi-fi cafe and are paying for something using your smartphone -- the cafe owner controls your network connection.
"

^ Perhaps cafe owner can quickly double spent any change ?! Wink

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