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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 149. (Read 378996 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

Don't worry, it's going to happen sooner or latter as Core doesn't scales and blocks are being filled out. Either the pressure will just keep going up for larger blocks or the market will move to something else that scales better leaving Core in the dust.

Get used to that now.

Blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

But yes, can't wait for you people sheeps to fork off.

Unfortunately for you, most people want to stay on chain so yes the block size is very relevant.

You really need to ramp up your arguments, maybe ask Peter for some pointers. You sound like the retarded one from the bunch  Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

Don't worry, it's going to happen sooner or latter as Core doesn't scales and blocks are being filled out. Either the pressure will just keep going up for larger blocks or the market will move to something else that scales better leaving Core in the dust.

Get used to that now.

Blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

But yes, can't wait for you people sheeps to fork off.

Unfortunately for you, most people want to stay on chain so yes the block size is very relevant.

Whilst most people still use debit cards, poor people sheeps dreaming of everlasting free-spamming-on-chain transactions are, yet again, irrelevant.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

Don't worry, it's going to happen sooner or latter as Core doesn't scales and blocks are being filled out. Either the pressure will just keep going up for larger blocks or the market will move to something else that scales better leaving Core in the dust.

Get used to that now.

Blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

But yes, can't wait for you people sheeps to fork off.

Unfortunately for you, most people want to stay on chain so yes the block size is very relevant.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
This distinction is critical in understanding the issues of mining and pool centralization.

The point is miners will not allow one pool to grow to large, since this would undermine the basic value proposition of Bitcoin. It is also actually the other way around, the pools serve the miners. Since it is the miners that control the hashing power. I am not advocating eight gigabyte blocks today that would be ridiculous. In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever.

If you really think that miners will conspire or will be forced to fundamentally undermine the value proposition of Bitcoin itself then you do not understand the fundamental incentive mechanisms and game theory inherent in its design. Bitcoin is sustained and maintained by the miners who are incentivized not to undermine the value of Bitcoin, this is why pools are not approaching fifty one percent any more and they never will as long as the hashing power remains sufficiently distributed which is not effected by increasing the blocksize.
I really feel like talking to a brick wall. I specifically chose an extreme scenario to demonstrate you that mining centralization pressures exist (my original claim), no matter miners' readiness to switch pools. If there are only two pools located in the same data-center, what can you do as an individual miner?

What you are confusing here is this: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever" should at best be worded like that: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any mining centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible". Even in this form it can be debated whether these pressures would be insignificant.
You are still missing the point that I am making, this statement should be rephrased like this then instead: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any pool centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible".

This would be a more accurate statement, while this would still also support that increasing the block size does not lead increased mining centralization. This is why this distinction between pool centralization and mining centralization is so important.
No, I clearly see the point, but I consider it largely irrelevant as miners have to pool their mining power anyway, and with large blocks their options (voting as you name it) are diminishing towards nothing... Anyway, I have nothing to add here.
sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

Don't worry, it's going to happen sooner or latter as Core doesn't scales and blocks are being filled out. Either the pressure will just keep going up for larger blocks or the market will move to something else that scales better leaving Core in the dust.

Get used to that now.

Blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

But yes, can't wait for you people sheeps to fork off.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
This distinction is critical in understanding the issues of mining and pool centralization.

The point is miners will not allow one pool to grow to large, since this would undermine the basic value proposition of Bitcoin. It is also actually the other way around, the pools serve the miners. Since it is the miners that control the hashing power. I am not advocating eight gigabyte blocks today that would be ridiculous. In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever.

If you really think that miners will conspire or will be forced to fundamentally undermine the value proposition of Bitcoin itself then you do not understand the fundamental incentive mechanisms and game theory inherent in its design. Bitcoin is sustained and maintained by the miners who are incentivized not to undermine the value of Bitcoin, this is why pools are not approaching fifty one percent any more and they never will as long as the hashing power remains sufficiently distributed which is not effected by increasing the blocksize.
I really feel like talking to a brick wall. I specifically chose an extreme scenario to demonstrate you that mining centralization pressures exist (my original claim), no matter miners' readiness to switch pools. If there are only two pools located in the same data-center, what can you do as an individual miner?

What you are confusing here is this: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever" should at best be worded like that: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any mining centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible". Even in this form it can be debated whether these pressures would be insignificant.
You are still missing the point that I am making, this statement should be rephrased like this then instead: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any pool centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible".

This would be a more accurate statement, while this would also still support my statement that increasing the block size does not lead to increased mining centralization. This is why this distinction between pool centralization and mining centralization is so important.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

Don't worry, it's going to happen sooner or latter as Core doesn't scales and blocks are being filled out. Either the pressure will just keep going up for larger blocks or the market will move to something else that scales better leaving Core in the dust.

Get used to that now.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
This distinction is critical in understanding the issues of mining and pool centralization.

The point is miners will not allow one pool to grow to large, since this would undermine the basic value proposition of Bitcoin. It is also actually the other way around, the pools serve the miners. Since it is the miners that control the hashing power. I am not advocating eight gigabyte blocks today that would be ridiculous. In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever.

If you really think that miners will conspire or will be forced to fundamentally undermine the value proposition of Bitcoin itself then you do not understand the fundamental incentive mechanisms and game theory inherent in its design. Bitcoin is sustained and maintained by the miners who are incentivized not to undermine the value of Bitcoin, this is why pools are not approaching fifty one percent any more and they never will as long as the hashing power remains sufficiently distributed which is not effected by increasing the blocksize.
I really feel like talking to a brick wall. I specifically chose an extreme scenario to demonstrate you that mining centralization pressures exist (my original claim), no matter miners' readiness to switch pools. If there are only two pools located in the same data-center, what can you do as an individual miner?

What you are confusing here is this: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever" should at best be worded like that: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any mining centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible". Even in this form it could be debated whether these pressures would be insignificant.

You are. I'd propose you give up now. Others have tried but this dude is just too dense for his own good.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
This distinction is critical in understanding the issues of mining and pool centralization.

The point is miners will not allow one pool to grow to large, since this would undermine the basic value proposition of Bitcoin. It is also actually the other way around, the pools serve the miners. Since it is the miners that control the hashing power. I am not advocating eight gigabyte blocks today that would be ridiculous. In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever.

If you really think that miners will conspire or will be forced to fundamentally undermine the value proposition of Bitcoin itself then you do not understand the fundamental incentive mechanisms and game theory inherent in its design. Bitcoin is sustained and maintained by the miners who are incentivized not to undermine the value of Bitcoin, this is why pools are not approaching fifty one percent any more and they never will as long as the hashing power remains sufficiently distributed which is not effected by increasing the blocksize.
I really feel like talking to a brick wall. I specifically chose an extreme scenario to demonstrate you that mining centralization pressures exist (my original claim), no matter miners' readiness to switch pools. If there are only two pools located in the same data-center, what can you do as an individual miner? You can't solo-mine, you can't change that level of centralization by starting a new pool..

What you are confusing here is this: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever" should at best be worded like that: "In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would be unlikely to cause any mining centralization, because centralization pressures would be negligible". Even in this form it could be debated whether these pressures would be insignificant.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
This distinction is critical in understanding the issues of mining and pool centralization.

The point is miners will not allow one pool to grow to large, since this would undermine the basic value proposition of Bitcoin. It is also actually the other way around, the pools serve the miners. Since it is the miners that control the hashing power. I am not advocating eight gigabyte blocks today that would be ridiculous. In the examples that I have given eight megabyte is what I am using, which would not cause any mining centralization whatsoever.

If you really think that miners will conspire or will be forced to fundamentally undermine the value proposition of Bitcoin itself then you do not understand the fundamental incentive mechanisms and game theory inherent in its design. Bitcoin is sustained and maintained by the miners who are incentivized not to undermine the value of Bitcoin, this is why pools are not approaching fifty one percent any more and they never will as long as the hashing power remains sufficiently distributed which is not effected by increasing the blocksize.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.
I can't see how this distinction is of much value, as in the end most miners will have to mine at pools, which are being centralized.

Pools are masters, and miners are slaves. Yes, miners can change their masters, but they can't get free. In the end, the pools that give the most (more income due to natural reasons) will attract most miners.

Just imagine an extreme situation with ~8Gb (read: very large) blocks. In this case, apparently the most effective configuration would be 1 single pool, or a couple pools located in the same data-center. And you miners wouldn't be able to do anything with this centralization.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.

sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.

I'll push it just a bit more for you, since you like honesty:

You abide or gtforko to any altcoin that suits your corporatist mirage.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
If we cannot trust that the majority of the mining power will do what is best for Bitcoin then Bitcoin has already fundamentally failed which I do not think is presently the case. In order to orphan all non-abiding blocks a single entity would need to be able exert control over more then fifty one percent of the mining power, if this happens Bitcoin has already been undermined anyway. I do not think it will be possible to enforce such policy across every jurisdiction in the world, this is however more of a question for geopolitics.
My point still stands: larger blocks increase mining centralization pressures. Truth is, even with a single miner you can trust that it will do what's best for Bitcoin. But it doesn't have to. It's all based on incentives. Mining centralization is hard to prevent, as the past tells us, and even harder to undo. You likely won't notice until the bad happens.
I agree with you that mining centralization is difficult to prevent, because of centralization of manufacture and economies of scale among other reasons, to a certain extend I have accepted this reality however. I still do not think that increasing the blocksize would increase mining centralization since miners do not run full nodes.

In my position for instance I just point my hashing power towards a pool of my choice that I think reflects my beliefs well and acts responsible, increasing the block size does not effect my mining operation whatsoever and the majority of the hashing power is under the control of people that are in a similar position to myself.

Increasing the blocksize does introduce centralization pressures but not in regards to mining. Keeping the blocksize at one megabyte also introduces centralization in the form of an increased reliance on third parties. So for me considering this balancing act, increasing the blocksize is the most decentralized option with everything considered.
You don't say anything new; in fact, you're reiterating your claims as if I never challenged them.
I'll try again, the last time: there are network topology issues which result in an uneven block propagation. Uneven propagation alters the orphan race outcomes for different players (mostly pools), making some of them more profitable. The larger blocks get, the larger is the financial difference. This is what alters the incentive structure.
This is exactly my point, it effects the pools not the miners. This is a very important distinction, since if miners are not effected it does not increase mining centralization, it could effect pool centralization if increased to much however for pools it is trivial to setup a full node inside of a data center, which is why pools can support much larger blocks without increasing centralization. It is important to point out the distinction between mining centralization and pool centralization, what you are discussing effects pool centralization, therefore increasing the blocksize does not increase mining centralization.

You are claiming that you can vote with your feet, and I hate to repeat that a lot of hashing power is industrial scale, and is attached to a particular pool. Whether there is a million 1 GH/s miners going back and forth is irrelevant, their combined hashpower is what matters. I don't have any statistical data, but I suspect the majority of hashpower is already industrial-scale and is rigid w/r/t to pools.
I do not think that hashpower is rigid with pools, after all over seventy percent of hashpower is currently concentrated in public pools: https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=4days

The majority of hashpower is already industrial scale however that does not mean that this hashpower is exclusive to particular pools, it is after all very easy for a miner to switch between pools. If we had one hundred industrial miners responsible for the majority of the hashpower spread over 20 pools this would still be very decentralized, there are small miners or "home" miners like myself but I suspect that the hashpower that these types of miners represent would not be much more then one of these larger industrial mines. This is the reality today, it would be better if there where more small miners like myself.

I can tell you with absolute confidence that an increase in the blocksize would not effect my ability to compete with the larger industrial mines. It is very simple really, as a miner I do not run a full node, therefore increasing the difficulty of running a full node does not effect my mining operation.

In response to the incident of Antpool SPV mining and causing a fork a few months back, since then Antpool has lost a lot of its mining power which proves my point exactly, such a pool is incentivized to attract more miners by acting responsibly and when they act irresponsibly they lose support, proving the points that I have been making. I very much doubt that Antpool would make such a mistake again since they lost a lot of money because of the reward and reputation that was lost, if miners understand one thing it is profit.
I believe this is a common logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc. Moreover, I couldn't find anything that can support your claim. According to organofcorti, there were no significant plunges in AntPool hashrate during June-August, and it has risen over that two-fold in the period. And has risen since then as well.
Fair enough on Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I can not prove with absolute certainty that the decrease in the hashrate of Antpool was because of this incident. However since I tend to keep an eye on pool distribution I do distinctly remember Antpool having over thirty percent of the hashpower before the time of this incident and now they only have sixteen percent. One aspect of that has been the recent increase in the overall hashpower since I am looking at the percentage not the hashrate. I do share your concerns about mining centralization, however I do not think that increasing the blocksize would effect mining centralization for the reasons I have explained here. That is a good website by the way, thank you for linking it, there is some very good analysis on there.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?

None.


Thank you for the honest answer.
sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?


None.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
The reason the market consensus tolerates a limit to the left of Q*...

You have your hypothesis and I have mine.  We will only be able to determine which is correct with the benefit of hindsight.  Like I said upthread, the nice thing is that these hypotheses are at least partly testable.  If your theory is correct (that the market will tolerate a limit to the left of Q*) then that would have the affect of pushing aggregate fees above the aggregate cost of production for block space.  If the total miner fees collected over a six month period in the future were, for example, twice the total block rewards lost due to orphaning, then I think I would agree that your theory is correct.  

Time will tell.

My hypothesis is supported by current observations of the network dynamics.

Yours is based on faulty assumptions derived from your "paper" that pretend "cost of production" (which I presume is another name for orphan costs) are non-negligible on the long-term and that it is not trivial for miners to overcome them by cooperating/centralizing.

By all account you are wrong as miners have already shown a tendency to optimize for profit. An unbounded block size will only grow this incentive.


Miners will mine the coin with the most value.

Anyway, how about you both get lost with your "hypothesis"?

Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

In Vires Numeris.

I'm on your side, just playing along with Peter for entertainment  Smiley


You're only making a fool of yourself. I hope you know that.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
...Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

It sounds like you believe that Bitcoin is governed by mathematics, rather than by the market.  Is this an accurate assessment?

Under what conditions (if any) do you believe it is possible for the Bitcoin protocol rules to be changed (e.g., adopting a larger block size limit)?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
The reason the market consensus tolerates a limit to the left of Q*...

You have your hypothesis and I have mine.  We will only be able to determine which is correct with the benefit of hindsight.  Like I said upthread, the nice thing is that these hypotheses are at least partly testable.  If your theory is correct (that the market will tolerate a limit to the left of Q*) then that would have the affect of pushing aggregate fees above the aggregate cost of production for block space.  If the total miner fees collected over a six month period in the future were, for example, twice the total block rewards lost due to orphaning, then I think I would agree that your theory is correct.  

Time will tell.

My hypothesis is supported by current observations of the network dynamics.

Yours is based on faulty assumptions derived from your "paper" that pretend "cost of production" (which I presume is another name for orphan costs) are non-negligible on the long-term and that it is not trivial for miners to overcome them by cooperating/centralizing.

By all account you are wrong as miners have already shown a tendency to optimize for profit. An unbounded block size will only grow this incentive.


Miners will mine the coin with the most value.

Anyway, how about you both get lost with your "hypothesis"?

Only Mathematics rules, and no, it does not encompass any democratic procedures within it...

In Vires Numeris.

I'm on your side, just playing along with Peter for entertainment  Smiley
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We will only be able to determine which is correct with the benefit of hindsight. 

Did you catch Max Keiser today? He was talking about the blocksize debate with Jaromil, and both were referring to your little putsch in the past tense.

Time appears to be telling on you.

Yep, there it is: https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/317750-episode-max-keiser-819/
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