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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 32. (Read 378980 times)

legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
Funny, Silk Road was the largest online contraband market in the world and I don't remember $100k coins.

Silk road represented a small and largely unknown marketplace on the deep web. Most drug dealers and traffickers are still money laundering USD and other fiat through existing channels like HSBC. We have to step outside our bubble and realize how big the blackmarket is and how small bitcoin is.

Most guns/drugs are still sold through existing channels and not online.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
What's up with the sudden surge of BIP101 fraud / XT diehards?  Cheesy

Chill out dudes, XT is dead, BIP101 is dead. These are happy times  Grin

Fork off already  Smiley

if they fork the word dead will be bigger for xt and bip101, they just want to make more chaos at the end and i hope the thread will be locked because seriously is getting offhand and there is the risk that this thread will never die at the end
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
What's up with the sudden surge of BIP101 fraud / XT diehards?  Cheesy

Chill out dudes, XT is dead, BIP101 is dead. These are happy times  Grin

Fork off already  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Quote
Bitcoin does not scale efficiently, but it certainly can scale. We just need to increase the blocksize. To answer your question, this does require a hard fork, hard forks are the only way to increase the blocksize.

Hard forks are also an important governance mechanism within Bitcoin which allow us to resolve fundamental differences and disagreements, even if that might mean splitting Bitcoin, at least that is better then tyranny of the majority.

Go invent your own altcoin if you hate the Core developers with such venom.


Not necessary. Core is creating the Altcoin. Or do you think Blockstream can win against Coinbase?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Everyone wants the blocksize to increase. The mini-blockers are a loud, vocal minority that are already on the wrong side of history.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/who-is-for-and-against-expanding-the-block-size-reasonably-soon.119/

Talks about loud, vocal minority.

Links to forum with almost 300 members!

Did you read the list in the post that I linked to? Those people are not part of that forum... they are the major players in the bitcoin ecosystem.

They're major banking parasites freeloaders indeed.

Coinbase. Banking puppets
Xapo. Wences IMO is one of the few legit bloke in the industry. Most likely was lied to by Gavin and Mike and urged to show "unity" with the "industry"
BitGo. Web Wallet, has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
Circle. Goldman Sachs puppets
Blockchain.info Broken Web wallet, has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
ItBit. Banking puppets

Miners are rallying behind Core.

I guess that sums it up.

So which side are you on? The zionist banking incumbents or the cypherpunks?

I know where my allegiance lies.

Yes, we know: Front National. But Bitcoin is Capitalism, not National Socialism/Socialist Nationalism.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
They also don't understand what politics is and how everything human is also political.

Hint: It isn't what you see on CNBC and Fox News

Now, now Veritas, no need to create suckpuppet accounts to spam the thread  Cheesy

Yeah, an account created 33 months ago with an obviously different writing style and 600 posts is definitely a sock puppet of Veritas. Such an astute observation, nice one =)

brg444 late adopter jumped the train a year later at all time high prices. That's what makes him angry and aggressive.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Good to know that a BIP is in the works, though obviously I disagree with your assertion that we are not presently approaching network capacity, it is becoming quite clear that we are nearing that point now.

As you can see from this chart the growth in transaction volume is consistent, almost even exponential.


I would suggest the tipping point where we can start to consider a fee market developing and rasing tx fee prices would be a day of full blocks(whichever the limits miners impose as ultimately they can lower the limit or reject tx's)

https://www.quandl.com/data/BCHAIN/AVBLS-Bitcoin-Average-Block-Size

We are still not there yet but it is also perfectly reasonable to take Gavin's suggestion that we should prepare for capacity limits beforehand. I take a middle view and suggest we should be prepared to implement a hard fork to raise the limit as a temporary bump (perhaps 2-4-8 ) if we have a day of full blocks and the fee market starts to raise prices unreasonably with negative effects on our ecosystem.

Paypal and Visa sometimes have outages , and it wouldn't be the end of the world if bitcoin had a brief hiccup and I like the pressure to incentivize more creative solutions (segwit/ln/relay network/ect...) that the fear is creating.

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

The fee-market science fiction that those kids@core intend to enforce is ridiculous. RBF means DBF: Destroy By Fee.


The entire RBF-fee-market plan is the result of your complete misunderstanding of basic economics. Bitcoin is in the "move money around" market. There are plenty of competitors who will happily move money around better than Bitcoin is doing, for lower fees, now you got the outcome you wanted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wgm20/why_payouts_didnt_execute_today/cxzln2q?context=3
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
I can give you a 10 pages proposal written in ancient chinese + arabic, and tell you this one can solve all the problems for bitcoin, would you accept my proposal? You need to first go into some university for 10 years before you understand what I'm talking about, or you simply ignore it?
-snip-
In other words, you are saying that you lack experience/knowledge in the field. This does not make the proposal that complex. There are simpler solutions, however this one is not as complex as people are saying that it is.

It is not about expertise here, it is about time. Given two developers commanding same level of skill, A write a code and B want to make sure it is bug free and secure, the time it takes for B to validate the code will be much longer than the time that A spent on writing codes. Of course you can validate all the security holes of SW given enough time, but that will be months/years and we have not seen the code yet

You can make a poll to see how many people understand BIP101 and how many people understand SW

Actually I don't understand why Gavin showed so much positive attitude for SW and even push it as a hard fork, maybe because he knows it will fail, then people will run into his XT as he planned
Judging by your posts, it's certainly about expertise. And Gavin's attitude is likely also the result of his expertise allowing him to grasp the concept.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Your amazon example is a marginal situation. Sure you might enjoy the benefits of jumping through these hoops but please don't pretend it is in anyway convenient for anyone other than determined Bitcoiners.

There is a very large group of people who waste a bit of time comparison shopping and cutting out coupons as well. The amount of effort to use foldapp and purse isn't any more.


But the PayPal of the underworld won't push the price through the roof.

I only use bitcoin on the whitemarket so am not the biggest expert on the blackmarket, but crunching some numbers can quickly reflect that even if bitcoin was used in a reasonable 5% of blackmarket txs with 0 greymarket and whitemarket use cases it would still grow to over 100k in value per btc in price. It is sometimes difficult to appreciate how large the blackmarket is. In many countries, the black and grey markets are necessarily larger than the "white market"

Funny, Silk Road was the largest online contraband market in the world and I don't remember $100k coins.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500


I suppose I do see fundamental irreconcilable differences that are based on politics and economics, ideology essentially. This divide is not technical but political in nature. This is what gives me cause and justification for this split. I can see how possibly technically it can be argued that the differences between the two sides are not that great. For me however the political and economical differences are worlds apart, over time this has also grown to be more apparent. The fracturing of our community in terms of the forums and subredit is also a sign of this phenomena. I have at least found a new home on the bitco.in forum where like minded people like myself are gathering.


True, the fundamental reason of a split always comes from politics and economics. That's why we should put enough effort to research user's behavior. You can see my signature to get some statistics I did, obviously majority of the users are using it to store value, that decided the major use case and the corresponding block size strategy

Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-does-not-need-to-be-spent-constantly-to-maintain-its-value-1283729
Bitcoin derives much of its value from its utility, without this utility Bitcoin is definitely not as novel as a store of value like gold for instance, much of the present speculation is based on this. After all I can not sprinkle gold dust down the phone line and send it across the world cheaply in a matter of seconds like I can with Bitcoin. Bitcoin the currency and Bitcoin the commodity actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion.
If you are talking about spending, most of my transaction in bitcoin already done between large institutions like web wallet and exchanges, I have not touched my client for a long time, simply because it's more convenient and secure to use web based services with 2FA enabled. Of course there is no FDIC for those institutions, but for coffee money, they are more than enough

Anyway you have to go to exchanges to convert to fiat money to spend, then why don't just directly use exchanges as your wallet? For merchants, being able to download a software and directly accept customer payment is great, but the consumer does not benefit from a light weight wallet at all due to all the security issues they have to manage
I guess I like to control my own private keys and use cold storage etc, you know be your own bank, the old Bitcoin philosophy.

I think the SPV wallets on smartphones like Airbitz and Mycelium are great for mass adoption. Easy to use and secure, while people still control their own private keys. I have not really sold much Bitcoin myself actually, except for exchanging it for goods and services directly. My hope is that one day we will not need to convert it back to Fiat at all, and one Bitcoin will be worth one Bitcoin. Smiley
staff
Activity: 4270
Merit: 1209
I support freedom of choice
When I heard yesterday that btcdrak was made a moderator of /r/btc, my first thoughts were "Maybe /r/Bitcoin finally has a bit of competition" and "I wonder how long that'll last". The answer: probably not very long. As someone (iCEBREAKER?) predicted, these people will just keep forking themselves into oblivion.
Getting the attitude on easily lying isn't a good achievement.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination


I suppose I do see fundamental irreconcilable differences that are based on politics and economics, ideology essentially. This divide is not technical but political in nature. This is what gives me cause and justification for this split. I can see how possibly technically it can be argued that the differences between the two sides are not that great. For me however the political and economical differences are worlds apart, over time this has also grown to be more apparent. The fracturing of our community in terms of the forums and subredit is also a sign of this phenomena. I have at least found a new home on the bitco.in forum where like minded people like myself are gathering.


True, the fundamental reason of a split always comes from politics and economics. That's why we should put enough effort to research user's behavior. You can see my signature to get some statistics I did, obviously majority of the users are using it to store value, that decided the major use case and the corresponding block size strategy

Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-does-not-need-to-be-spent-constantly-to-maintain-its-value-1283729
Bitcoin derives much of its value from its utility, without this utility Bitcoin is definitely not as novel as a store of value like gold for instance, much of the present speculation is based on this. After all I can not sprinkle gold dust down the phone line and send it across the world cheaply in a matter of seconds like I can with Bitcoin. Bitcoin the currency and Bitcoin the commodity actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion.

If you are talking about spending, most of my transaction in bitcoin already done between large institutions like web wallet and exchanges, I have not touched my client for a long time, simply because it's more convenient and secure to use web based services with 2FA enabled. Of course there is no FDIC for those institutions, but for coffee money, they are more than enough

Anyway you have to go to exchanges to convert to fiat money to spend, then why don't just directly use exchanges as your wallet? (In fact the world earliest banks evolved from exchanges) For merchants, being able to download a software and directly accept customer payment is great, but the consumer does not benefit from a light weight wallet at all due to all the security issues they have to manage
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500


I suppose I do see fundamental irreconcilable differences that are based on politics and economics, ideology essentially. This divide is not technical but political in nature. This is what gives me cause and justification for this split. I can see how possibly technically it can be argued that the differences between the two sides are not that great. For me however the political and economical differences are worlds apart, over time this has also grown to be more apparent. The fracturing of our community in terms of the forums and subredit is also a sign of this phenomena. I have at least found a new home on the bitco.in forum where like minded people like myself are gathering.


True, the fundamental reason of a split always comes from politics and economics. That's why we should put enough effort to research user's behavior. You can see my signature to get some statistics I did, obviously majority of the users are using it to store value, that decided the major use case and the corresponding block size strategy

Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-does-not-need-to-be-spent-constantly-to-maintain-its-value-1283729
Bitcoin derives much of its value from its utility, without this utility Bitcoin is definitely not as novel as a store of value like gold for instance, much of the present speculation is based on this. After all I can not sprinkle gold dust down the phone line and send it across the world cheaply in a matter of seconds like I can with Bitcoin. Bitcoin the currency and Bitcoin the commodity actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination


I suppose I do see fundamental irreconcilable differences that are based on politics and economics, ideology essentially. This divide is not technical but political in nature. This is what gives me cause and justification for this split. I can see how possibly technically it can be argued that the differences between the two sides are not that great. For me however the political and economical differences are worlds apart, over time this has also grown to be more apparent. The fracturing of our community in terms of the forums and subredit is also a sign of this phenomena. I have at least found a new home on the bitco.in forum where like minded people like myself are gathering.


True, the fundamental reason of a split always comes from politics and economics. That's why we should put enough effort to research user's behavior. You can see my signature to get some statistics I did, obviously majority of the users are using it to store value, that decided the major use case and the corresponding block size strategy


Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value




hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I agree that what Satoshi suggests is strictly speaking irrelevant. I actually would prefer a more compromised solution as well, which is why I suggest starting BIP101 at 2MB. I would even support BIP100 or BIP103 like you mentioned. Though BIP101 presently seems politically the most practical, since we do need a single banner to rally under after all.

You have a great attitude, I can absolutely respect your position. I also just want what is best for Bitcoin and by extension the world. I want there to be increased adoption while maximizing decentralization and financial freedom. Thank you for not demonizing my position like many other people on this thread have done. I think the best outcome would be if we do both end up on the same chain. At least as users of Bitcoin when the split happens we will have coins in both chains, just hold on to them and we will both be winners no matter what happens. Smiley  
I do believe most XT supports have the best of intentions , including you, Gavin and Hearn. The difference in the opinions for the most part are overblown and superficial. Most core developers agree with raising the limit and always have agreed with raising the limit. One distinction I see is Gavin/Hearn appear to be of the opinion that we need to implement a simple and aggressive solution now and most of the other developers appear more conservative and are ok with hitting the blocklimit where fees start to increase before rolling out changes. In the past we have reached consensus with a critical hardfork overnight when problems arose, doing so now will be more difficult but if fees start creeping up to unreasonble levels and causing problems than the community will quickly come together again and take one of the tested and coded solutions to task. The changes being implemented like segwit will help other scalability solutions down the road so the worst case scenario is a 50/50 fork.... but i don't see that happening based upon the miner votes.  
True, though I do not think that Core will raise the limit significantly anytime soon, or at the very least I refuse to "trust" them to do this in the absence of any plan or code to hard fork, considering what is at stake.

I suppose I do see fundamental irreconcilable differences that are based on politics and economics, ideology essentially. This divide is not technical but political in nature. This is what gives me cause and justification for this split. I can see how possibly technically it can be argued that the differences between these two sides are not that great. For me however the political and economical differences are worlds apart, over time this has also grown to be more apparent. The fracturing of our community in terms of the forums and subredit is also a sign of this phenomena. I have at least found a new home on the bitco.in forum where like minded people like myself are gathering.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-164#post-5620
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
I can give you a 10 pages proposal written in ancient chinese + arabic, and tell you this one can solve all the problems for bitcoin, would you accept my proposal? You need to first go into some university for 10 years before you understand what I'm talking about, or you simply ignore it?
-snip-
In other words, you are saying that you lack experience/knowledge in the field. This does not make the proposal that complex. There are simpler solutions, however this one is not as complex as people are saying that it is.

It is not about expertise here, it is about time. Given two developers commanding same level of skill, A write a code and B want to make sure it is bug free and secure, the time it takes for B to validate the code will be much longer than the time that A spent on writing codes. Of course you can validate all the security holes of SW given enough time, but that will be months/years and we have not seen the code yet

You can make a poll to see how many people understand BIP101 and how many people understand SW

Actually I don't understand why Gavin showed so much positive attitude for SW and even push it as a hard fork, maybe because he knows it will fail, then people will run into his XT as he planned
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
I agree that what Satoshi suggests is strictly speaking irrelevant. I actually would prefer a more compromised solution as well, which is why I suggest starting BIP101 at 2MB. I would even support BIP100 or BIP103 like you mentioned. Though BIP101 presently seems politically the most practical, since we do need a single banner to rally under after all.

You have a great attitude, I can absolutely respect your position. I also just want what is best for Bitcoin and by extension the world. I want there to be increased adoption while maximizing decentralization and financial freedom. Thank you for not demonizing my position like many other people on this thread have done. I think the best outcome would be if we do both end up on the same chain. At least as users of Bitcoin when the split happens we will have coins in both chains, just hold on to them and we will both be winners no matter what happens. Smiley  

I do believe most XT supports have the best of intentions , including you, Gavin and Hearn. The difference in the opinions for the most part are overblown and superficial. Most core developers agree with raising the limit and always have agreed with raising the limit. One distinction I see is Gavin/Hearn appear to be of the opinion that we need to implement a simple and aggressive solution now and most of the other developers appear more conservative and are ok with hitting the blocklimit where fees start to increase before rolling out changes. In the past we have reached consensus with a critical hardfork overnight when problems arose, doing so now will be more difficult but if fees start creeping up to unreasonble levels and causing problems than the community will quickly come together again and take one of the tested and coded solutions to task. The changes being implemented like segwit will help other scalability solutions down the road so the worst case scenario is a 50/50 fork.... but i don't see that happening based upon the miner votes.  
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I am telling XT supporters to fork with good tithings and best of luck. I like a diversity of implementations and am perfectly willing to be on the wrong fork as there are more important matters at stake than any my investments. It is good to test thoroughly all ideas and if Aggressive scaling is the way to go I will be happy with being proven wrong and may eventually start using your coin if it is the path going forward. Seriously. Smiley

P.S...What Satoshi suggests is irrelevant, however. What matters is what works and has been put in the fire and survived. As long as the surviving chain is decentralized , sovereign, fungible, and respected individuals privacy and rights I will be happy.
I agree that what Satoshi suggests is strictly speaking irrelevant. I actually would prefer a more compromised solution as well, which is why I suggest starting BIP101 at 2MB. I would even support BIP100 or BIP103 like you mentioned. Though BIP101 presently seems politically the most practical, already being coded, tested and implemented with an already wide base of support. Since we do need a single banner to rally under after all.

You have a great attitude, I can absolutely respect your position. I also just want what is best for Bitcoin and by extension the world. I want there to be increased adoption while maximizing decentralization and financial freedom. Thank you for not demonizing my position like many other people on this thread have done. I think the best outcome would be if we do both end up on the same chain. At least as users of Bitcoin when the split does happen we will have coins in both chains, just hold on to them and we will both be winners no matter what happens. Smiley  
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
I am telling XT supporters to fork with good tithings and best of luck. I like a diversity of implementations and am perfectly willing to be on the wrong fork as there are more important matters at stake than any my investments. It is good to test thoroughly all ideas and if Aggressive scaling is the way to go I will be happy with being proven wrong and may eventually start using your coin if it is the path going forward. Seriously. Smiley

P.S...What Satoshi suggests is irrelevant, however. What matters is what works and has been put in the fire and survived. As long as the surviving chain is decentralized , sovereign, fungible, and respected individuals privacy and rights I will be happy.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Lets say hypothetically we both support BIP103 and so does the economic majority, we would most likely still need to go against the "developer consensus" of Core. In order to have it implemented. This of course changes when or if Core changes their tune, though presently that does not seem to be the case. Surely there would even be a limit to your patience in regards to increasing the blocksize, even if just hypothetically, since we can not predict the future.
So you are suggesting the developers can never find consensus with any modest scaling proposal ?.. Segwit is already proving you wrong there... but good thing the developers are irrelevant when it comes to deciding on increasing the blocksize anyways , they just write the code... and this is what you don't seem to understand ... the reason the miners haven't agreed with 101 or Xt is because they don't agree with it and think its too aggressive. They respect the developers opinions because they aren't obtuse and are very knowledgeable in the incentive structures and risks with scaling themselves.  

Miners are the ones that hold the majority of the power. Right now I see up to 5% hashing power possibly supporting XT.
I am not saying that the developers can never find consensus I am saying that they have not found consensus so far. I do not believe Segwit has proven me wrong since it is not going to make any difference whatsoever over the short term, and over the long term the gains are insignificant. After all, blocks are presently full and Core does not have any definite plans in place to increase the blocksize.

I believe it is the economic majority that holds all the power. The way this works in practice is not well understood by most people, it can also not be simplified in such simple terms as you have put it. It is a difficult position that the miners are presently in, and in regards to you thinking they have rejected BIP101 for good I think it is to early to know this, not that I am even in a position to know such a thing and I doubt that you are in such a position yourself, though of course I do not know who you are so you might have access to this type of insider information.

It is also good to keep in mind that the feedback loop for Bitcoin governance is very slow, and without an abundance of well respected alternative implementations, this governance mechanism is still incomplete. This situation is changing rapidly however, in the long run I am confident that the original vision of Satoshi Nakamoto will triumph.



Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
But for now, while it’s still small, it’s nice to keep it small so new users can get going faster. When I eventually implement client-only mode, that won’t matter much anymore.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed.  If we hit the threshold now, it would almost certainly be some kind of flood and not actual use.  Keeping the threshold lower would help limit the amount of wasted disk space in that event.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
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