Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 36.

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legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1393

You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:17:01 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 02:13:36 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:52:11 PM

I use Bitcoin as a currency almost on a daily basis and I find it much easier and convenient compared to other payment solutions. I often buy my diners from this site: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

Using a Airbitz wallet on an android smart phone, while using Bitpay as a payment processor it is incredibly fast, easy and convenient. I even find it to be superior compared to the other payment options that are available to me. My life and experience serves as a counterfactual to your obviously flawed statements.

I often find that the small blockist perspective is very bearish on Bitcoin, keep telling us how fragile, and unpractical Bitcoin is. I disagree, Bitcoin is great it can do all the things that you say it can not.

No it's not. That's not how it works as this is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

You're simply part of the marginal case of users who like to pretend that novelty = convenience when it's clear the rest of the world (and Bitcoin's largest holders) are not buying the delusion that Bitcoin is somehow superior to other payment systems. At least not yet.

It might be for certain niche use cases (overseas transfers) but for everyday business it can't hold a candle to my VISA card.

It takes me less then 3 seconds to send Bitcoins to order diner through this site in the way that I have described. I have even shown my parents how to do this even though they are not "Bitcoiners" themselves. It is not anecdotal evidence because it is factually evident how convenient, easy and fast this really is. I would suggest that you should try this for your self sometime, and you will see that I am not wrong.

It also takes 3 seconds to order diner using my VISA. Moreover I get 2% cash back on everything and it comes with industry leading consumer protection.

Have your parents fully converted to Bitcoin and are they using it everywhere they go now?

If it is so superior to other solutions then why not?

Go online and try buying a full auto M-16 and an ounce of peruvian blue flake cocaine with your Visa card. Report back and tell me how that works out for you.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:29:26 PM

The more economically sound way to go about it is to use whatever amount of fiat you have before Bitcoin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

Why? Even if we ignore appreciation and I buy btc at 1% above spot , I can immediately save 20-30% off amazon with regulatory arbitrage.

Why should I spend fiat first instead?

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:30:22 PM

I hope you don't run a business.

I own several , and even pay some employees in btc, but no reason to use an ad hominem .... address the argument above directly.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 02:24:24 PM

There really is not many valid reasons not to spend and receive bitcoin.

I hope you don't run a business.

RoadTrain

legendary

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1009

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 02:13:36 PM

It takes me less then 3 seconds to send Bitcoins to order diner through this site in the way that I have described. I have even shown my parents how to do this even though they are not "Bitcoiners" themselves. It is not anecdotal evidence because it is factually evident how convenient, easy and fast this really is. I would suggest that you should try this for your self sometime, and you will see that I am not wrong.

I certainly don't understand how Bitcoin can compete with credit cards even for online purchases. If I want to buy something online, it only takes me to write 16+3 numbers, and nothing if a store knows my card already. Near-instant payments, zero fees (for me).

I tried buying with Bitcoin online, it was an interesting experience, but nothing more. Bitcoin is good because you can hodl it, and then buy something without the need to sell it. Asset + currency. But I wouldn't use it for purchases in the fiat world.

Much more interesting payment use cases are remittances/capital controls evasion. There's speculation, btw, that the ongoing rise in price is due to chinese trying to evade capital controls.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 02:24:24 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:17:01 PM

It also takes my 3 seconds to order diner using my VISA. Moreover I get 2% cash back on everything and it comes with industry leading consumer protection.

Have your parents fully converted to Bitcoin and are they using it everywhere they go now?

If it is so superior to other solutions then why not?

You are making the dangerous assumption that it is an either or proposition. Fiat and CC's are superior in certain ways as currency and payment rails than bitcoin... no doubt, but not in all ways. Bitcoin allows users to leverage bitcoin for regulatory arbitrage to save money and than can even use bitcoins greatest weakness as a strength (volatility) by choosing when to spend it. Bitcoin down more than 10-20% use Visa, all else cases use bitcoin.

The more economically sound way to go about it is to use whatever amount of fiat you have before Bitcoin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:17:01 PM

It also takes my 3 seconds to order diner using my VISA. Moreover I get 2% cash back on everything and it comes with industry leading consumer protection.

Have your parents fully converted to Bitcoin and are they using it everywhere they go now?

You are making the dangerous assumption that it is an either or proposition. Fiat and CC's are superior in certain ways as currency and payment rails than bitcoin... no doubt, but not in all ways. Bitcoin allows users to leverage bitcoin for regulatory arbitrage to save money and than can even use bitcoins greatest weakness as a strength (volatility) by choosing when to spend it. Bitcoin down more than 10-20%?; use Visa, all else cases use bitcoin.

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:17:01 PM

If it is so superior to other solutions then why not?

Mostly due to ignorance or irrational fear. There really is not many valid reasons not to spend and receive bitcoin.

Now if businesses started refusing all other forms of payment besides bitcoin(regardless of how noble in principle ) it would be economic suicide in most cases. It is a good thing we can have our cake and eat it too though.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 02:13:36 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:52:11 PM

I use Bitcoin as a currency almost on a daily basis and I find it much easier and convenient compared to other payment solutions. I often buy my diners from this site: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

Using a Airbitz wallet on an android smart phone, while using Bitpay as a payment processor it is incredibly fast, easy and convenient. I even find it to be superior compared to the other payment options that are available to me. My life and experience serves as a counterfactual to your obviously flawed statements.

I often find that the small blockist perspective is very bearish on Bitcoin, keep telling us how fragile, and unpractical Bitcoin is. I disagree, Bitcoin is great it can do all the things that you say it can not.

No it's not. That's not how it works as this is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

You're simply part of the marginal case of users who like to pretend that novelty = convenience when it's clear the rest of the world (and Bitcoin's largest holders) are not buying the delusion that Bitcoin is somehow superior to other payment systems. At least not yet.

It might be for certain niche use cases (overseas transfers) but for everyday business it can't hold a candle to my VISA card.

It takes me less then 3 seconds to send Bitcoins to order diner through this site in the way that I have described. I have even shown my parents how to do this even though they are not "Bitcoiners" themselves. It is not anecdotal evidence because it is factually evident how convenient, easy and fast this really is. I would suggest that you should try this for your self sometime, and you will see that I am not wrong.

It also takes 3 seconds to order diner using my VISA. Moreover I get 2% cash back on everything and it comes with industry leading consumer protection.

Have your parents fully converted to Bitcoin and are they using it everywhere they go now?

If it is so superior to other solutions then why not?

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:52:11 PM

I use Bitcoin as a currency almost on a daily basis and I find it much easier and convenient compared to other payment solutions. I often buy my diners from this site: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

Using a Airbitz wallet on an android smart phone, while using Bitpay as a payment processor it is incredibly fast, easy and convenient. I even find it to be superior compared to the other payment options that are available to me. My life and experience serves as a counterfactual to your obviously flawed statements.

I often find that the small blockist perspective is very bearish on Bitcoin, keep telling us how fragile, and unpractical Bitcoin is. I disagree, Bitcoin is great it can do all the things that you say it can not.

No it's not. That's not how it works as this is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

You're simply part of the marginal case of users who like to pretend that novelty = convenience when it's clear the rest of the world (and Bitcoin's largest holders) are not buying the delusion that Bitcoin is somehow superior to other payment systems. At least not yet.

It might be for certain niche use cases (overseas transfers) but for everyday business it can't hold a candle to my VISA card.

It takes me less then 3 seconds to send Bitcoins to order diner through this site in the way that I have described. I have even shown my parents how to do this even though they are not "Bitcoiners" themselves. It is not anecdotal evidence because it is factually evident how convenient, easy and fast this really is. I would suggest that you should try this for your self sometime, and you will see that I am not wrong.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:52:11 PM

I use Bitcoin as a currency almost on a daily basis and I find it much easier and convenient compared to other payment solutions. I often buy my diners from this site: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

Using a Airbitz wallet on an android smart phone, while using Bitpay as a payment processor it is incredibly fast, easy and convenient. I even find it to be superior compared to the other payment options that are available to me. My life and experience serves as a counterfactual to your obviously flawed statements.

I often find that the small blockist perspective is very bearish on Bitcoin, keep telling us how fragile, and unpractical Bitcoin is. I disagree, Bitcoin is great it can do all the things that you say it can not.

No it's not. That's not how it works as this is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

You're simply part of the marginal case of users who like to pretend that novelty = convenience when it's clear the rest of the world (and Bitcoin's largest holders) are not buying the delusion that Bitcoin is somehow superior to other payment systems. At least not yet.

It might be for certain niche use cases (overseas transfers) but for everyday business it can't hold a candle to my VISA card.

Cconvert2G36

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: hdbuck on December 15, 2015, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 10:50:37 AM

Quote from: johnyj on December 15, 2015, 10:42:19 AM

But at least you understand that BIP101 will increase the risk of centralization. However for SW proposal, I totally don't understand anything at all: By changing the bitcoin architecture, Pieter essentially change it to something else, an alt-coin. So all the talks about SW should go into alt-coin section, not here. And all this large degree of deviation from Satoshi's original design for what? A mere one time increase for capacity of light nodes, not even helping full nodes?

I've been quite surprised by your reaction to this proposal.

It's as if you're being intentionally obtuse because clearly you are making no effort at understanding SW and overexagerate its complexity.

Whether or not you agree with its motivations and underlying ideology SW is pretty straight forward.

straight forward in cutting out the cryptographic signatures out of the blockchain... to allow more spam.

thank you but no thank you.

forkers should create their own altcoin already.

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:41:47 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 01:26:18 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:20:12 PM

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

Not necessarily, Bitcoin exists as the most respected and secure crypto-currency in existence at the moment. If I was getting hit with 30 cents to 40 cents each time a few negative consequences would occur-

1) I wouldn't be able to brag to peers how cheap bitcoin is compared to cc or debit cards to tx in . P/R problem.
2) I would consider using centralized off the chain solutions like coinbase to eliminate these fees which defeats one of the primary raison d'être of bitcoin.
3) I may consider using more fiat and alts for txs with lower fees.

Bitcoin is great but lets not assume invulnerability as its still young , immature , and risky currency with plenty of competition.

Another mislead and very lost sheep Undecided

1) You shouldn't have started in the first place. Bitcoin is a miserable experience and absolutely unable to compete with centralized payment networks in terms of fees and convenience. That will change eventually, but right now they're not even comparable.

2) The primary raison d'être of Bitcoin is not that you should secure your everyday transactions under nearly 1 exahash of hashing power but that you are able to safely store your wealth in an asset that cannot be debased. If you find convenience in the user-friendly and cost effective solutions provided by off-chain solutions why would you not use them? It doesn't stop you from storing your capital in Bitcoin.

Quote from: davout

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

3) That is really the only sane way to go about it... Ever heard of Gresham's law Huh

I use Bitcoin as a currency almost on a daily basis and I find it much easier and convenient compared to other payment solutions. I often buy my diners from this site: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/en/

Using a Airbitz wallet on an android smart phone, while using Bitpay as a payment processor it is incredibly fast, easy and convenient. I even find it to be superior compared to the other payment options that are available to me. My life and experience serves as a counterfactual to your obviously flawed statements.

I often find that the small blockist perspective is very bearish on Bitcoin, keep telling us how fragile, and unpractical Bitcoin is. I disagree, Bitcoin is great and it can do all of the things that you say it can not.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:41:47 PM

1) You shouldn't have started in the first place. Bitcoin is a miserable experience and absolutely unable to compete with centralized payment networks in terms of fees and convenience. That will change eventually, but right now they're not even comparable.

I typically find tx in btc easier than cc for the most part. It is also cheaper than using any of my merchant processors, and allows me to save 20% -25% off amazon from regulatory arbitrage. You can use bitcoin as a high speculative asset and I will enjoy its utility right now.

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:41:47 PM

The primary raison d'être of Bitcoin is not that you should secure your everyday transactions under nearly 1 exahash of hashing power but that you are able to safely store your wealth in an asset that cannot be debased. If you find convenience in the user-friendly and cost effective solutions provided by off-chain solutions why would you not use them? It doesn't stop you from storing your capital in Bitcoin.

That is one raison d'être of bitcoin, but not the sole reason... I invite you to read the white paper if you haven't already.

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:41:47 PM

3) That is really the only sane way to go about it... Ever heard of Gresham's law Huh

Sure , but bitcoin doesn't exist in a vacuum, as there is plenty of competition. Its security and network effect can be difficult to overcome if an alt becomes slightly better one day , but if one was significantly better in most aspects I and others would flock to that alternative as people leave fiat to bitcoin.

Bitcoin is only a good store of value based upon its scarcity and utility or future promise of utility. Remove the latter and all you have is a scarce but worthless asset.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:41:29 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:34:22 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:24:40 PM

I seriously think that your understanding of economics is lacking. If fees became 100x larger it would kill the majority of use cases for Bitcoin, it would certainly drive the majority of users away to less expensive alternatives.

No it's not. You just live in a bubble outside or reality where the payment network is the majority use case for Bitcoin.

Jump out of your delusion for a minute and consider that it's not.

Only a marginal percentage of the money supply is in circulation. The rest is being held in cold storage.

The indisputable principal use case of Bitcoin at this stage is as a speculative store of value. That is: either people hold it or trade it on exchange for different fiat currencies. These use cases are not deterred by transaction fees.

Everything else is a major distraction that has largely been responsible for the current situation. Naive people such as yourself has been misguided into thinking Bitcoin, right now, is somehow a competitive payment network and that we should unconditionally strive to sell this zero-fee, instant tx to everyone listening.

Quote from: Wences Casares

I think that something the Bitcoin community has to be honest about, at least amongst ourselves is what Bitcoin is about today and what we would like it to be. Sometimes we make it look like it's about things we want it to be in the future. The truth is when we look at the volume of people buying the "stock" of Bitcoin and the flow of people buying their first bitcoin. It's mostly about buying & holding. It's totally fine, it's a decent use case. It's not a two-sided market : for me to buy & hold it doesn't require a counterparty to accept Bitcoin. I simply have to agree to a price that someone is selling. It has been working for 3 years and I think we can depend on that. It's not some theory, some hypothesis, it's working and it can keep working

I disagree with your conception of Bitcoin, you are treating it like a get rich quick scheme. Everyone just holds until they sell for fiat right? That is unsustainable and it is a zero sum game. I believe Bitcoin is the future of money and more. Bitcoin is a currency and a commodity just like the gold and silver coins of ancient times. Which have served humanity as currency for the majority of our known history, there certainly is precedent for this concept to say the least.

No.

Everyone just holds until fiat is worthless.

I don't give a damn what you believe it. I am explaining to you clearly what the current market use for Bitcoin is. There is no debating this.

It's clear your conceptions of economics are misguided or outright ignorant. You might be experienced in obtuse political babble but it's clear economy is not your strong suit.

Have a look at this list here and consider how little of the top holders are concerned with transactions:
http://www.bitcoinrichlist.com/top100

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 01:26:18 PM

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:20:12 PM

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

Not necessarily, Bitcoin exists as the most respected and secure crypto-currency in existence at the moment. If I was getting hit with 30 cents to 40 cents each time a few negative consequences would occur-

1) I wouldn't be able to brag to peers how cheap bitcoin is compared to cc or debit cards to tx in . P/R problem.
2) I would consider using centralized off the chain solutions like coinbase to eliminate these fees which defeats one of the primary raison d'être of bitcoin.
3) I may consider using more fiat and alts for txs with lower fees.

Bitcoin is great but lets not assume invulnerability as its still young , immature , and risky currency with plenty of competition.

Another mislead and very lost sheep Undecided

1) You shouldn't have started in the first place. Bitcoin is a miserable experience and absolutely unable to compete with centralized payment networks in terms of fees and convenience. That will change eventually, but right now they're not even comparable.

2) The primary raison d'être of Bitcoin is not that you should secure your everyday transactions under nearly 1 exahash of hashing power but that you are able to safely store your wealth in an asset that cannot be debased. If you find convenience in the user-friendly and cost effective solutions provided by off-chain solutions why would you not use them? It doesn't stop you from storing your capital in Bitcoin.

Quote from: davout

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

3) That is really the only sane way to go about it... Ever heard of Gresham's law Huh

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:34:22 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:24:40 PM

I seriously think that your understanding of economics is lacking. If fees became 100x larger it would kill the majority of use cases for Bitcoin, it would certainly drive the majority of users away to less expensive alternatives.

No it's not. You just live in a bubble outside or reality where the payment network is the majority use case for Bitcoin.

Jump out of your delusion for a minute and consider that it's not.

Only a marginal percentage of the money supply is in circulation. The rest is being held in cold storage.

The indisputable principal use case of Bitcoin at this stage is as a speculative store of value. That is: either people hold it or trade it on exchange for different fiat currencies. These use cases are not deterred by transaction fees.

Everything else is a major distraction that has largely been responsible for the current situation. Naive people such as yourself has been misguided into thinking Bitcoin, right now, is somehow a competitive payment network and that we should unconditionally strive to sell this zero-fee, instant tx to everyone listening.

Quote from: Wences Casares

I think that something the Bitcoin community has to be honest about, at least amongst ourselves is what Bitcoin is about today and what we would like it to be. Sometimes we make it look like it's about things we want it to be in the future. The truth is when we look at the volume of people buying the "stock" of Bitcoin and the flow of people buying their first bitcoin. It's mostly about buying & holding. It's totally fine, it's a decent use case. It's not a two-sided market : for me to buy & hold it doesn't require a counterparty to accept Bitcoin. I simply have to agree to a price that someone is selling. It has been working for 3 years and I think we can depend on that. It's not some theory, some hypothesis, it's working and it can keep working

I disagree with your conception of Bitcoin, you are treating it like a get rich quick scheme. Everyone just holds until they sell for fiat right? That is unsustainable and it is a zero sum game. I believe Bitcoin is the future of money and more. Bitcoin is a currency and a commodity just like the gold and silver coins of ancient times. Which have served humanity as currency for the majority of our known history, there certainly is precedent for this concept to say the least.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 01:24:40 PM

I seriously think that your understanding of economics is lacking. If fees became 100x larger it would kill the majority of use cases for Bitcoin, it would certainly drive the majority of users away to less expensive alternatives.

No it's not. You just live in a bubble outside or reality where the payment network is the majority use case for Bitcoin.

Jump out of your delusion for a minute and consider that it's not.

Only a marginal percentage of the money supply is in circulation. The rest is being held in cold storage.

The indisputable principal use case of Bitcoin at this stage is as a speculative store of value. That is: either people hold it or trade it on exchange for different fiat currencies. These use cases are not deterred by transaction fees.

Everything else is a major distraction that has largely been responsible for the current situation. Naive people such as yourself has been misguided into thinking Bitcoin, right now, is somehow a competitive payment network and that we should unconditionally strive to sell this zero-fee, instant tx to everyone listening.

Quote from: Wences Casares

I think that something the Bitcoin community has to be honest about, at least amongst ourselves is what Bitcoin is about today and what we would like it to be. Sometimes we make it look like it's about things we want it to be in the future. The truth is when we look at the volume of people buying the "stock" of Bitcoin and the flow of people buying their first bitcoin. It's mostly about buying & holding. It's totally fine, it's a decent use case. It's not a two-sided market : for me to buy & hold it doesn't require a counterparty to accept Bitcoin. I simply have to agree to a price that someone is selling. It has been working for 3 years and I think we can depend on that. It's not some theory, some hypothesis, it's working and it can keep working

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:20:12 PM

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

Not necessarily, Bitcoin exists as the most respected and secure crypto-currency in existence at the moment. If I was getting hit with 30 cents to 40 cents each time a few negative consequences would occur-

1) I wouldn't be able to brag to peers how cheap bitcoin is compared to cc or debit cards to tx in . P/R problem.
2) I would consider using centralized off the chain solutions like coinbase to eliminate these fees which defeats one of the primary raison d'être of bitcoin.
3) I may consider using more fiat and alts for txs with lower fees.

Bitcoin is great but lets not assume invulnerability as its still young , immature , and risky currency with plenty of competition.

VeritasSapere

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: brg444 on December 15, 2015, 01:20:12 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 01:15:41 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 12:46:39 PM

Good to know that a BIP is in the works, though obviously I disagree with your assertion that we are not presently approaching network capacity, it is becoming quite clear that we are nearing that point now.

As you can see from this chart the growth in transaction volume is consistent, almost even exponential.

I would suggest the tipping point where we can start to consider a fee market developing and rasing tx fee prices would be a day of full blocks(whichever the limits miners impose as ultimately they can lower the limit or reject tx's)

https://www.quandl.com/data/BCHAIN/AVBLS-Bitcoin-Average-Block-Size

We are still not there yet but it is also perfectly reasonable to take Gavin's suggestion that we should prepare for capacity limits beforehand. I take a middle view and suggest we should be prepared to implement a hard fork to raise the limit as a temporary bump (perhaps 2-4-8 ) if we have a day of full blocks and the fee market starts to raise prices unreasonably with negative effects on our ecosystem.

Paypal and Visa sometimes have outages , and it wouldn't be the end of the world if bitcoin had a brief hiccup and I like the pressure to incentivize more creative solutions (segwit/ln/relay network/ect...) that the fear is creating.

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

I seriously think that your understanding of economics is lacking. If fees became 100x larger it would kill the majority of use cases for Bitcoin, it would certainly drive the majority of users away to less expensive alternatives.

Quote from: rocks

Again, a fee market does not fix this, a fee market simply priorities who is able to use Bitcoin and who is not able to use Bitcoin. There are losers in a fee market that become priced out.

Transactions will also start to become more unreliable as the blocks begin to fill up as well.

I am also intrinsically opposed to artificially "forcing" a "fee market" this early in Bitcoins development.

Quote from: Konrad S Graf

Transaction-fee levels are not in any general need of being artificially pushed upward. A 130-year transition phase was planned into Bitcoin during which the full transition from block reward revenue to transaction-fee revenue was to take place.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: BitUsher on December 15, 2015, 01:15:41 PM

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 12:46:39 PM

Good to know that a BIP is in the works, though obviously I disagree with your assertion that we are not presently approaching network capacity, it is becoming quite clear that we are nearing that point now.

As you can see from this chart the growth in transaction volume is consistent, almost even exponential.

I would suggest the tipping point where we can start to consider a fee market developing and rasing tx fee prices would be a day of full blocks(whichever the limits miners impose as ultimately they can lower the limit or reject tx's)

https://www.quandl.com/data/BCHAIN/AVBLS-Bitcoin-Average-Block-Size

We are still not there yet but it is also perfectly reasonable to take Gavin's suggestion that we should prepare for capacity limits beforehand. I take a middle view and suggest we should be prepared to implement a hard fork to raise the limit as a temporary bump (perhaps 2-4-8 ) if we have a day of full blocks and the fee market starts to raise prices unreasonably with negative effects on our ecosystem.

Paypal and Visa sometimes have outages , and it wouldn't be the end of the world if bitcoin had a brief hiccup and I like the pressure to incentivize more creative solutions (segwit/ln/relay network/ect...) that the fear is creating.

People who need it will still be using Bitcoin even if fees a 100x larger than what they are today. This is really a non-issue.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: VeritasSapere on December 15, 2015, 12:46:39 PM

Good to know that a BIP is in the works, though obviously I disagree with your assertion that we are not presently approaching network capacity, it is becoming quite clear that we are nearing that point now.

As you can see from this chart the growth in transaction volume is consistent, almost even exponential.

I would suggest the tipping point where we can start to consider a fee market developing and rasing tx fee prices would be a day of full blocks(whichever the limits miners impose as ultimately they can lower the limit or reject tx's)

https://www.quandl.com/data/BCHAIN/AVBLS-Bitcoin-Average-Block-Size

We are still not there yet but it is also perfectly reasonable to take Gavin's suggestion that we should prepare for capacity limits beforehand. I take a middle view and suggest we should be prepared to implement a hard fork to raise the limit as a temporary bump (perhaps 2-4-8 ) if we have a day of full blocks and the fee market starts to raise prices unreasonably with negative effects on our ecosystem.

Paypal and Visa sometimes have outages , and it wouldn't be the end of the world if bitcoin had a brief hiccup and I like the pressure to incentivize more creative solutions (segwit/ln/relay network/ect...) that the fear is creating. Embrace the Fear and use it to solve problems in new ways.

Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 36. (Read 378991 times)