Bitcoin's 21million total coin supply hinders it immensely - page 3.

paulsonnumismatics

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Quote from: grifferz on April 03, 2014, 03:08:34 AM

You need to understand that in the protocol the unit is the satoshi and the value is just the number of those. Having 8 decimal places in Bitcoin is just the wallet's way of displaying that; it's not doing floating point maths in the protocol. As a consequence it really doesn't matter where you put the decimal point as these are just abstract numbers.

The protocol name is Bitcoin, thanks. Not SatoshiCoin. The unit is Bitcoin and the decimals are called unnoficially satoshis. Cmon... O_O

Quote from: grifferz on April 03, 2014, 03:08:34 AM

Hopefully you can see that if the supply limit is a problem then a coin with a supply 476 times higher probably isn't going to be enough.

#BecauseIsaySo O_O Actually yes, i think its going to be enough, thats why i proposed that in first place.
I have explained myself sufficiently. One BTC for every person in the planet. With enough fractional power to be ultra manageable. Yes, i do care about the last person in Haiti. Because ultimately, this is a push of the technology to reshape the current financial conditions of everyone, at least is what i think.

I agree with you on one thing, though.This conversation is pointless but hey, we are just hanging out here in the forum :-)

grifferz

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Quote from: serenitys on April 03, 2014, 12:23:30 AM

What is a satoshi "worth" or how much of the whole is it - how does that work?

Don't throw shit, this is confusing and new Grin

I think you're American so right now you are used to the common names of some denominations of US coinage - cent, nickel, dime, quarter. You know that they go:

cent - one hundredth of a dollar
nickel - five hundredths of a dollar
dime - ten hundredths (tenth) of a dollar
quarter - twenty five hundredths of a dollar

This is so obvious to you that you probably never even really think about it that way.

Similarly there are one thousand millibits (mBTC) in a BTC, or one million microbits (uBTC). The absolute smallest amount of bitcoin that can be represented in the protocol right now is called a satoshi and it is BTC0.00000001.

A mBTC is always going to be one thousandth of a BTC in the same way that a ¢ is always going to be one hundredth of a $.

So whatever value one BTC has, a mBTC always has one thousandth of that value. For example, BTC1 is currently worth about $422 so mBTC1 is currently worth about $0.42.

The only reason why this seems hard is because you aren't familiar with it.

I believe that once the price of Bitcoin levels out in relation to common fiat currencies then we will settle on working in one denomination, whether that be the whole bitcoin, millibitcoin or microbitcoin.

The extra digits will be there but at the level chosen they will be so small as to not really be worth considering, like when you do a currency conversion to US dollar and end up with something like $123.527548262 - The $123.52 is the interesting part.

grifferz

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Quote from: paulsonnumismatics on April 02, 2014, 08:11:39 PM

Quote from: grifferz on April 02, 2014, 01:26:58 PM

If you think it is that necessary, start drafting the BIP, or switch to a coin that has your desired 11 decimal places (wtf?) to begin with.

Your apparently perma-state of amazingness prevents you from reading correctly. I proposed 10K million UNITS. Not decimal places. If you want to Wow-Such-Amaze yourself even more, realize that im proposing here :

10,000,000,000.00000000

Omg. Very numbers. much headache.

You need to understand that in the protocol the unit is the satoshi and the value is just the number of those. Having 8 decimal places in Bitcoin is just the wallet's way of displaying that; it's not doing floating point maths in the protocol. As a consequence it really doesn't matter where you put the decimal point as these are just abstract numbers.

So the maximum possible number of units for Bitcoin is 2,100,000,000,000,000, and you are proposing an altcoin with a maximum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 - only around 476 times more.

Hopefully you can see that if the supply limit is a problem then a coin with a supply 476 times higher probably isn't going to be enough. Also I hope you can see that it's rather pointless worrying about this non-issue now when it would be a lot more productive to see at what level usage settles at and soft fork if necessary.

You must admit that if you created an altcoin right now with the properties you describe, it would almost certainly be a flop as it would get no traction compared to bitcoin, which probably explains why the only people seriously discussing this are the ones who don't understand and are inventing work for hypothetical other people to carry out.

serenitys

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Be Here Now

Question?

Might be a stupid question, a naive question, or a good question - don't know yet, still learning - but it is a legit question to better understand the concept going on with the division part.

I get the whole btc and the division into units in per centages part, though I am still shaky on what they'd be called per se. What I'm asking is that the units that are created in the division, are they also able to increase in value according to the valuation of the whole bitcoin at any given time? I'm trying to understand if this applies or not.

Like 1btc is the equivalent of (or "worth") $100 usd, and .50btc is worth half that, or $50, and on down the line. If, I have .25 btc (whatever it's called), and the "whole" btc triples value to $300, what's the value then of the .25? Does it increase to .75 or is it a hard devaluation and it's always worth .25 no matter the overall value of the whole?

What is a satoshi "worth" or how much of the whole is it - how does that work?

Don't throw shit, this is confusing and new Grin

Newmine

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Hals post to Satoshi on sourceforge the first week of bitcoin was speculating each coins worth to eventually be $10 million. That is just insane and ridiculous. It will never get there just for the fact that Satoshis coins are dormant and most likely belong to him/them. Giving them astronomical wealth. That to me is what most likely could doom bitcoin. 1 man has too much for nothing. And every person who wasn't there today and every day since will not adopt because the are disadvantaged.

Edit link to Hals and Satoshis correspondence:
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/21312757/

Joe_Bauers

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GCVMMWH

Quote from: grifferz on April 02, 2014, 10:06:50 AM

Quote from: Joshuar on April 02, 2014, 10:02:30 AM

Bitcoin has a 21 total of 21million coins that could ever be produced.

That's 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis (BTC0.00000001).

If that ever becomes an issue then a soft fork can add more digits.

This is a non-issue.

Exactly. Coin supply is irrelevant. This is one thing that many don't seem to grasp on coinmarketcap. I'm thinking of creating trillion-trillion coin and being number 1 on the list Cheesy

shawshankinmate37927

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Bitcoin: The People's Bailout

Quote from: twiifm on April 02, 2014, 09:37:45 PM

Why didn't Satoshi just set total BTC amount to 21 Trillion? Its just an arbitrary number. Ever thought of that?

Correct, it's just an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter how many pieces you initially decide to cut the pie into. What matters is that you are able to keep cutting each piece into smaller pieces.

bryant.coleman

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Actually it is one of the plus points of the BTC. It gives the BTC advantage over fiat, as inflation will not be applicable to it.

shawshankinmate37927

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Bitcoin: The People's Bailout

Quote from: twiifm on April 02, 2014, 08:16:59 PM

"Ignorant masses" LOL. Without mass adoption BTC or anything else for that matters will become extinct

Enough people have already adopted Bitcoin to make it viable. There are more people now using Bitcoin than there are using many of the currencies of the countries on this list. "Mass adoption" might be nice, but isn't necessary for Bitcoin to continue to succeed.

Taras

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Please do not PM me loan requests!

21,000,000 BTC
or
21,000,000,000 mBTC
or
21,000,000,000,000 uBTC
or
2,100,000,000,000,000 sats

People just need to think like cents instead of dollars, like in the early 1800s

twiifm

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Quote from: bountygiver on April 02, 2014, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: twiifm on April 02, 2014, 09:19:10 PM

Quote from: krodmandoon on April 02, 2014, 09:15:38 PM

Then just use miliBTC or nanoBTC

Why didn't Satoshi just set total BTC amount to 21 Trillion? Its just an arbitrary number. Ever thought of that?

bountygiver

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Quote from: twiifm on April 02, 2014, 09:19:10 PM

Quote from: krodmandoon on April 02, 2014, 09:15:38 PM

Wait, counting in base ten is confusing? Decimals are too hard?

Please explain how you learned this extremely complex system:

$1.00 = 100% of 1 dollar
$0.25 = 25% of 1 dollar
$0.10 = 10% of 1 dollar
$0.01 = 1% of 1 dollar

BTC1 = 100% of one BTC
etc
etc
etc

and so on and so forth. BTC is far more divisible and the fact that there will only be 21M is simply an argument to strengthen the thought that Satoshis may very well end up the major unit of usage for the general public.

I'm just glad that we don't have to worry about inflation and words like decabitcoin and the like.

The OPs point I believe. Is that dividing the coins down to 8 decimal places is cumbersome. Has nothing to do with math and everything to do with pragmatics

Then just use miliBTC or nanoBTC

twiifm

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Quote from: krodmandoon on April 02, 2014, 09:15:38 PM

Wait, counting in base ten is confusing? Decimals are too hard?

Please explain how you learned this extremely complex system:

$1.00 = 100% of 1 dollar
$0.25 = 25% of 1 dollar
$0.10 = 10% of 1 dollar
$0.01 = 1% of 1 dollar

BTC1 = 100% of one BTC
etc
etc
etc

and so on and so forth. BTC is far more divisible and the fact that there will only be 21M is simply an argument to strengthen the thought that Satoshis may very well end up the major unit of usage for the general public.

I'm just glad that we don't have to worry about inflation and words like decabitcoin and the like.

The OPs point I believe. Is that dividing the coins down to 8 decimal places is cumbersome. Has nothing to do with math and everything to do with pragmatics

krodmandoon

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Wait, counting in base ten is confusing? Decimals are too hard?

Please explain how you learned this extremely complex system:

$1.00 = 100% of 1 dollar
$0.25 = 25% of 1 dollar
$0.10 = 10% of 1 dollar
$0.01 = 1% of 1 dollar

BTC1 = 100% of one BTC
etc
etc
etc

and so on and so forth. BTC is far more divisible and the fact that there will only be 21M is simply an argument to strengthen the thought that Satoshis may very well end up the major unit of usage for the general public.

I'm just glad that we don't have to worry about inflation and words like decabitcoin and the like.

twiifm

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Quote from: snarlpill on April 02, 2014, 07:48:05 PM

Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on April 02, 2014, 11:11:37 AM

The math isn't that complicated. Sounds like the problem is with the public education system, not Bitcoin. Instead of dumbing down Bitcoin, perhaps the sheeple need to wisen up.

Seriously though, thank you. In my opinion BTC will hopefully bring about changes in the way people think about their government issued fiat currencies, and realize that they don't have to be dependent of that. But it is not for everybody. Seriously people, decimal places are Not that hard to understand... Why should we dumb down our system just to accommodate the ignorant masses?

"Ignorant masses" LOL. Without mass adoption BTC or anything else for that matters will become extinct

paulsonnumismatics

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Quote from: grifferz on April 02, 2014, 01:26:58 PM

Amazing how many people are keen to apportion work to others.

You seem to amaze to almost anything, as this was a mere comment in a small thread on an internet forum. Im not running for President and this is not my religion, so just relax.

Quote from: grifferz on April 02, 2014, 01:26:58 PM

If you think it is that necessary, start drafting the BIP, or switch to a coin that has your desired 11 decimal places (wtf?) to begin with.

Your apparently perma-state of amazingness prevents you from reading correctly. I proposed 10K million UNITS. Not decimal places. If you want to Wow-Such-Amaze yourself even more, realize that im proposing here :

10,000,000,000.00000000

Omg. Very numbers. much headache.

snarlpill

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$5 24k Gold FREE 4 sign-up! Mene.com/invite/h5ZRRP

Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on April 02, 2014, 11:11:37 AM

The math isn't that complicated. Sounds like the problem is with the public education system, not Bitcoin. Instead of dumbing down Bitcoin, perhaps the sheeple need to wisen up.

Seriously though, thank you. In my opinion BTC will hopefully bring about changes in the way people think about their government issued fiat currencies, and realize that they don't have to be dependent of that. But it is not for everybody. Seriously people, decimal places are Not that hard to understand... Why should we dumb down our system just to accommodate the ignorant masses?

rix5

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what a stupid post.
buy some tix or doge or flappy then if bitcoin is too expensive or complicated for you ... gosh!

BADecker

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Quote from: grifferz on April 02, 2014, 10:06:50 AM

Quote from: Joshuar on April 02, 2014, 10:02:30 AM

Bitcoin has a 21 total of 21million coins that could ever be produced.

That's 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis (BTC0.00000001).

If that ever becomes an issue then a soft fork can add more digits.

This is a non-issue.

+1

curt.rowland

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Quote from: Joshuar on April 02, 2014, 11:02:40 AM

Quote from: jbreher on April 02, 2014, 10:17:43 AM

Quote from: Joshuar on April 02, 2014, 10:02:30 AM

It would of been much better if there were different types of bitcoin, like bitcoin=1bitcoin, macrobitcoin=.5bitcoin, microbitcoin= .25 bitcoin etc etc.

Logic fail. The prefix 'micro' means one millionth. Period. Always has, always will.

There are already 1,000,000 microBTC (uBTC) in a bitcoin. There are 100 satoshis in a uBTC. There are 1,000 uBTC in a millibitcoin (mBTC). There are 1,000 mBTC in a BTC.

I fail to see a problem.

Problem is exactly what you said..mainstream society, which is Most of Society is turned off by all these "microbits" and "satoshi", it's too irregular. I have friends who don't care about Bitcoin but know the basics about it, wanna know why they dont care? Because bitcoin is offputting with all it's math, and the 21million total limit makes it seem as if the currency itself wasn't designed to be thought of seriously.

Why do you insist on speaking for "most of mainstream society"?

Topic: Bitcoin's 21million total coin supply hinders it immensely - page 3. (Read 6028 times)