Bitcoin's Latest "Fall" Was Manipulated - page 2.

Red-Apple

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Quote from: Reid on October 31, 2019, 12:00:52 AM

So what do think should be the real price by now?

I thought months ago that 12k will be its bottom and price should not go below it.
But it did happen. Yes we could say someone or some group manipulated it to buy more.
They are now in profit so maybe they should go away by now or they could just buy again to make bitcoin more valuable.

to my understanding in any market there is a difference between "real price" and the "bottom". real price is the intrinsic value of the asset that basically indicates its real value. but the current price (which could be higher or lower than real price) is the indication of the market state.
so for example if we say real price is $10 then it can go to $9 but if it does it means it has gone below the intrinsic value and should come back up. and if it goes to $11 it has gone up in a bubble and should come back down.

in case of bitcoin at this time in my opinion $10k is the "real value" and anything below that is undervalue and needs to be corrected.

Epochjump

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Quote from: Darooghe on October 26, 2019, 12:46:02 PM

If you know any whales, ask them! traders with a lot of money can easily manipulate the trading because they easily move prices up or down. the most notable manipulations pump and dump schemes are related to minor altcoins. It’s just simpler to change a price of the unknown small coin with a low price. Bitcoin is manipulated too, but lesser. majority of whales grabbed enough BTC earlier.

Hence it’s not manipulated completely by whales. most of the hard volatility are trader volume. the rest are whales, hedge funds and large investors. they don’t manipulate the price that much, they manipulate it then the traders do the rest of the work. the reason why Bitcoin fell from $20,000, because they whales exited completely, then sold into traders on the down trend. All they had to do was wait. It’s predictable what happens when the whales exit the market, it keeps collapsing as people panic at each level.

I know a LOT of these so called "whales". I posted this in another myopic thread about why and how BTC did this and did that. As I predicted my insight was ignored. It will be ignored here as well. "The only thing people hate more than poetry is the truth". If this helps ONE person understand the truth and stop getting manipulated with the rest of the sheep, I'll be happy. All the sheep in that thread ignored this. I speak from over 30 years of experience on the "inside".

"Just an observation based on 30 + years of being a mortgage backed and Treasuries derivatives trader. Right now BTC is a very non liquid vehicle. It is traded by and followed by a lot of very inexperienced investors and speculators. OP is spot on, except left out the most important piece of his conclusion. The media and social media guppies are extremely gullible and easy to fool and manipulate. We as large institutional traders find so much easy money in the manipulation of the crypto space namely BTC. The majority of people with money in these assets read, and listen to, and react to this utter "bullcrap" put out there in the media. Most of those stories are deliberate "plants". We call it "Astro Turfing". Large speculators create a very negative fundamental story at or near low points that causes people to sell their holdings and amateur speculators to place shorts in the protocol. All the while we are accumulating massive long positions. The exact opposite is done at the highs. Traders have been establishing short positions in BTC since $ 13,500 ish on down to $9,000.00. It is extremely difficult to buy these shorts back in such large volume let alone establish the opposite long position with the low liquidity. So...we create a narrative by planting stories and postings and Social Media entries etc etc. Then the ducks come quaking. So, we feed them. The same exercise is done in reverse for long positions. I am safe in sharing this here with all of you because truth is, no one will believe me. But, That's the beauty of it. This is done in all markets. It's just easiest in BTC right now. It's been going on in the stock market for decades. A much higher level game. Yesterday's price action was not only very predictable but "set up" as shorts covered their positions and switched to " net long" from $9,000 down to $7,400.00. You would all do well for the time being to buy weakness in the price of BTC. The process is still in play. Then when the "news" is extremely good and price is high, get out. You will be in good company."

wajik-tempe

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!
when the market was in bull mode and the price was strongly rising and we had the reasonable correction after the $13k record, things were normal. then the dumping came and price fell, that part was surprising. when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

this "rise" that we are seeing today is not at all surprising. it was long overdue and should have happened a lot sooner. we are seeing the market correction and coming back to real prices once again.

I think no fall was manipulated, it's just the power of the whales and we have adapted with that.
When a group of whales doing mass selling their bitcoin, the market will shaking for sure and they made people panic and then buy their btc again in dip.
This is already a natural law for crypto that who has big amount of btc can control market movement

fabiorem

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I agree. The manipulation was evident.
But like I said before, the sudden pump was also manipulated.

Exchanges have small volumes, so any big money makes some difference.

I also expected the price to keep going up after 12k, which would end the recovery phase and bring the price back to the previous ATH by the end of this year.
When I saw the manipulated fall, I turned pessimist, to avoid more surprises.

Baofeng

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Quote from: Reid on October 31, 2019, 12:00:52 AM

So what do think should be the real price by now?

I thought months ago that 12k will be its bottom and price should not go below it.
But it did happen. Yes we could say someone or some group manipulated it to buy more.
They are now in profit so maybe they should go away by now or they could just buy again to make bitcoin more valuable.

I'm not looking at what should be the real price, but more of what could be the lowest lows? Can we still go below $3100? That's the lowest since we last all-time-high so everyone should take that in consideration or can even be the gauge as to how high we can get in the next bull run.

I guess it was really manipulated from behind so that they can continue to accumulate bitcoin at a cheap price. But there's no surprise here, it could be long overdue manipulation after-all.

error08

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

Bitcoin price decline from $8300 to $8000, the next target was $7200 within a day, clearly a manipulation to trigger more of sell-off but it seems failed, hence they pump bitcoin after 2 days waiting. So, the rise also manipulated, because the real price should be around $9K.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on October 28, 2019, 03:33:29 AM

Quote from: franky1 on October 27, 2019, 04:24:42 AM

the only time a price rise would be supported/sustained is if the cost of mining supports it
if people cannot mine cheap, they simply buy it instead.
those mining refuse to sell at a loss. meaning both buyers and sellers are giving the market a better value where they wont want to sell for less

the cost of mining is still not near $10k but at the most efficienct costs of ~$7.5k meaning about $8k as a minimum sell for profit
so ofcourse the price had every chance of returning to ~$8k
nothing, absolutely nothing indicated the near $10k was sustainable.
the $10k was just speculative, emotional hype froth(mini bubble layer)

That's good that you finally realize that network hashing power follows price, not vice versa. Although, some miners might mine at a loss for speculative/self-preservation reasons, that's why it seems price follows hashing power.

Which means, the entity who sold bitcoin if the price above the efficiency costs were miners all this time?

dentolas

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I agree with you, there are some movements that are obviously fabricated in order to collect more BTC, causing FUD to crash the price and by lower or simply dump to clean out a huge amount of leveraged traders is too tempting for the whales to resist... and there are huge amounts of BTC held by a few whales... market making at it's highest

Coin_trader

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Quote from: Reid on October 31, 2019, 12:00:52 AM

So what do think should be the real price by now?

I thought months ago that 12k will be its bottom and price should not go below it.
But it did happen. Yes we could say someone or some group manipulated it to buy more.
They are now in profit so maybe they should go away by now or they could just buy again to make bitcoin more valuable.

Manipulators will never stop manipulating bitcoin price. I suspect that exchange owner itself doing it just like what binance and tron do recently. Binance buy tether worth 300M usd then transfer it tron wallet then tron used that money to setup buy wall on binance exchange. Justing sun and CZ are playing dirty since the beginning so what's more other exchange can do especially on leverage exchange trading. They can team up to big crypto exchange to manipulate BTC price so that they can liquidate the majority position.

stompix

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on October 28, 2019, 03:33:29 AM

Quote from: franky1 on October 27, 2019, 04:24:42 AM

~

That's good that you finally realize that network hashing power follows price, not vice versa. Although, some miners might mine at a loss for speculative/self-preservation reasons, that's why it seems price follows hashing power.

Don't celebrate too early, it's still franky1 who we're talking about, he will come with some kind of explanation , of course with the required 100 lines of useless text and try spinning it to look like he said and at the same time he didn;t say that and that even if he was wrong he was actually right and we all don't have a clue how things work.

But I'm genuinely interested how he is going to spin this :

Quote from: figmentofmyass on October 26, 2019, 01:24:23 PM

it's tempting to cry "manipulation" when the price moves against you---we've all done it. but personally, i know better by now.

But of course.
When the price drops because of a statement made by the PBOC, it's obvious manipulation.
When the price rockets because of an interview from Jinping, it's obvious.....NOT manipulation.

I think we would all live longer to enjoy our bitcoins if we would stop following all this back and forth nonsense and put so much tough in it.

Reid

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So what do think should be the real price by now?

I thought months ago that 12k will be its bottom and price should not go below it.
But it did happen. Yes we could say someone or some group manipulated it to buy more.
They are now in profit so maybe they should go away by now or they could just buy again to make bitcoin more valuable.

alexsandria

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!
when the market was in bull mode and the price was strongly rising and we had the reasonable correction after the $13k record, things were normal. then the dumping came and price fell, that part was surprising. when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

this "rise" that we are seeing today is not at all surprising. it was long overdue and should have happened a lot sooner. we are seeing the market correction and coming back to real prices once again.

May be because we have been for bear market for a quite a while. That is why majority got suprised when the market goes green besides that sudden rise was something unusual some other thought of bull run though. Nevertheless, it was been manipulated by Whales by some news but others claim that is because of China stuff. Anyway let's just hope for pumps after these circumstances.

1Referee

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Quote from: alyssa85 on October 27, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

The "news" is supposedly that China is backing bitcoin. Which seems to be a mistranslation - they've simply passed a law on cryptography and how China wants to be a leader in cryptography, which is a whole other thing to cryptocurrency!

It could be a poorly translated article, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if news outlets and whatnot purposely spread fake bullish information to steer the market into the north direction. It's something we have seen happen for a long time now.

The point of the China news is that they are looking to become a blockchain hub, which might not even include Bitcoin and other crypto currencies at all. Bitcoin stands for freedom, which the Chinese government actively tries to take away from its people. I don't think they're going to open up to Bitcoin knowing that. Roll Eyes

It was quite nice not reading much about China in the last year or two, so I hope that this isn't going to be the start of what we went through in 2015/2016 with China dominanting the headlines. Even if the China news isn't actually affecting the price, if enough people believe it does and act to it, the market will move.

Red-Apple

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on October 29, 2019, 12:36:02 AM

Quote from: veleten on October 28, 2019, 05:42:23 AM

it was funny to see the two contradictory topics neatly together Cheesy

They were manipulated by the market manipulations to start those topics together. The whalecumulators, again dividing the plebs. Cool

that was actually the reason why i started this topic, so good catch by "veleten". it sometimes makes me wonder why people miss certain market movements and simply pass them by as if they were nothing (like the drop which was indeed the strangest thing) and then focus too much on a similar market movement which is in response to the previous move!
so basically they are focusing on the effect and ignoring the cause.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: veleten on October 28, 2019, 05:42:23 AM

it was funny to see the two contradictory topics neatly together Cheesy

They were manipulated by the market manipulations to start those topics together. The whalecumulators, again dividing the plebs. Cool

veleten

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it was funny to see the two contradictory topics neatly together Cheesy

I would say that any substantial price movement is manipulated , but the fall surprised me more
this may not seem like your exemplary bull market , but there was no reason for a 25% drop in price - not even negative news or failed expectations
this was the result of a sell out of coins when traders sell them too fast , they do not care to get the best price and are selling here and now
the problem is that even a relatively small volume can cause such a big price movement , imagine what happens if someone dumps or buys tens of thousands of coins in one go

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: franky1 on October 27, 2019, 04:24:42 AM

the only time a price rise would be supported/sustained is if the cost of mining supports it
if people cannot mine cheap, they simply buy it instead.
those mining refuse to sell at a loss. meaning both buyers and sellers are giving the market a better value where they wont want to sell for less

the cost of mining is still not near $10k but at the most efficienct costs of ~$7.5k meaning about $8k as a minimum sell for profit
so ofcourse the price had every chance of returning to ~$8k
nothing, absolutely nothing indicated the near $10k was sustainable.
the $10k was just speculative, emotional hype froth(mini bubble layer)

That's good that you finally realize that network hashing power follows price, not vice versa. Although, some miners might mine at a loss for speculative/self-preservation reasons, that's why it seems price follows hashing power.

Herbert2020

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Quote from: Oasisman on October 27, 2019, 03:50:14 AM

Quote from: Herbert2020 on October 27, 2019, 03:37:46 AM

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 26, 2019, 10:09:31 AM

I'm not a big seeker of explanations for short-term market movements, but I do wonder what caused this last rise.

there are certain rises that don't really need any explanation in my opinion. the recent drop that we had is one of those cases doesn't need any reason except the drop itself. for example can you explain why price went from $4.1k to $10k all of a sudden earlier this year? my answer is that it went up that fast because price fell to $3k and it did not belong there.
it was a similar situation here too. price didn't belong in below $9k range so it had to come back up.

IMHO, the price movements depends on how the people/investors react to the speculations and news.
Let's say the sudden pump of Bitcoin from $7,000 to $10,000 was cause by a massive buy out because of the bullish/positive news in crypto space or they just feel like it. The market won't move unless somebody is making it move.
Though, I'm not saying your explanation is wrong. I could also be wrong, but I think that's how the market reacts.

that's true because in the end the market is going in the direction that the majority of traders think it should go. so when a certain news comes out and they react to it in a certain way, the market can go in that direction faster.
but in these small scales and when the situation with the market is already unstable (being undervalued) the reaction that market shows isn't really to any news in my opinion. it is instead to the market movement itself. meaning when price goes above a certain level the bots and day traders all go crazy and start "panic buying" (similar to panic selling) without even being aware of what is going on in the news because they were all waiting for that "signal". so the price shoots up.

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!
when the market was in bull mode and the price was strongly rising and we had the reasonable correction after the $13k record, things were normal. then the dumping came and price fell, that part was surprising. when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

this "rise" that we are seeing today is not at all surprising. it was long overdue and should have happened a lot sooner. we are seeing the market correction and coming back to real prices once again.

Neither way, people got used to reach when bitcoins price tend to pump and dump where these are always been 2 things on what a market is.
Manipulation or not, sell off would be normal into those ranges way above on what been speculated.Price can dip on we least expected.Even reaching
that 7k price isnt still an assurance that its already the bottom.We cant remove on ones mind not to think that 3k level might happen again.

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Let's not say "manipulated" because that kinda means someone actually made other people do stuff by convincing them something that is not real could be real. But, let's say it was fabricated. As in the real price was never that low but some rich folks just sold their coins and managed to get their hands on cheaper coins thanks to price falling. It was closer to speculation than manipulation really.

I wouldn't be shocked if it was manipulation neither. It is really not a great deal of bother for bitcoin or bitcoin people because we have seen price move up and down so much that it is actually quite alright for me. I mean I have seen bitcoin move from $20k to $3k and I knew it was way above $3k in real price if you ask me and I was capable of holding all my coins (which later became $10k+) so it's fine.

Clement Kaliyar

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Quote from: Wysi on October 27, 2019, 09:34:35 AM

Yes bitcoin and crypto market are least bothered about what happens in China or any country whether they ban bitcoin or mining but I feel FUD is still working in favor to manipulate they market and negative news are doing the damage and it's our responsibility to educate people to stop believing in all the post I have started my part.

There will be a major issue in the bitcoin network if China bans bitcoin mining farms and it will effect the network until there is a hash rate difficulty correction, so you cannot say that they cannot do anything to bitcoin but the price manipulation is not because of these news but there are other factors in play to earn profit in a market like crypto where there is no regulatory issues even if there is an institutional manipulation.

Topic: Bitcoin's Latest "Fall" Was Manipulated - page 2. (Read 523 times)