Bitcoin's Latest "Fall" Was Manipulated - page 3.

Silberman

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Quote from: djsugar on October 26, 2019, 09:02:37 AM

Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!
when the market was in bull mode and the price was strongly rising and we had the reasonable correction after the $13k record, things were normal. then the dumping came and price fell, that part was surprising. when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

this "rise" that we are seeing today is not at all surprising. it was long overdue and should have happened a lot sooner. we are seeing the market correction and coming back to real prices once again.

The fall came because of the news of quantum computers and since, a strong support was broken, the price was expected to undergo more drop. But instead price went up by 3k in a few hours without any news or happening to support it. The rise was more manipulated than the drop. There was no reason for such a big pump when sentiments were negative. This shows that whales were playing against the market sentiments.

I am not really convinced the drop in the price happened because of those news about quantum computers but while I hope that what it is happening is not because someone is trying to manipulate the market it definitely seems that way from my perspective, we know the volatility of bitcoin has always being high but if you look at how the price began to rise at the beginning of this year you will see a slow and sustained upward movement and that is not what we are seeing now, the movement is too abrupt and this rises questions about its validity.

Wysi

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 27, 2019, 08:49:57 AM

Quote from: alyssa85 on October 27, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

The "news" is supposedly that China is backing bitcoin. Which seems to be a mistranslation - they've simply passed a law on cryptography and how China wants to be a leader in cryptography, which is a whole other thing to cryptocurrency!

nobody cares about Chinese news anymore whether it is negative or positive. everyone knows that it has never affected the bitcoin price. what used to be effective was the FUD which stopped working a couple of years ago when they repeated this technique so many times that it lost its power.

Yes bitcoin and crypto market are least bothered about what happens in China or any country whether they ban bitcoin or mining but I feel FUD is still working in favor to manipulate they market and negative news are doing the damage and it's our responsibility to educate people to stop believing in all the post I have started my part.

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 27, 2019, 08:49:57 AM

Quote from: alyssa85 on October 27, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

The "news" is supposedly that China is backing bitcoin. Which seems to be a mistranslation - they've simply passed a law on cryptography and how China wants to be a leader in cryptography, which is a whole other thing to cryptocurrency!

nobody cares about Chinese news anymore whether it is negative or positive. everyone knows that it has never affected the bitcoin price. what used to be effective was the FUD which stopped working a couple of years ago when they repeated this technique so many times that it lost its power.

Many people do believed on that mindset that Chinese government statements was one of the reason why btc price has an astonishing rise lately. Perhaps, you're having good points about the FUD I don't expect it now again risen from long time hibernation. Same scenario, it did bring more people's ride to another deceptive tactics, that merely attracts their aggressiveness.

Red-Apple

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Quote from: alyssa85 on October 27, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

The "news" is supposedly that China is backing bitcoin. Which seems to be a mistranslation - they've simply passed a law on cryptography and how China wants to be a leader in cryptography, which is a whole other thing to cryptocurrency!

nobody cares about Chinese news anymore whether it is negative or positive. everyone knows that it has never affected the bitcoin price. what used to be effective was the FUD which stopped working a couple of years ago when they repeated this technique so many times that it lost its power.

alyssa85

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Quote from: djsugar on October 26, 2019, 09:02:37 AM

The fall came because of the news of quantum computers and since, a strong support was broken, the price was expected to undergo more drop. But instead price went up by 3k in a few hours without any news or happening to support it. The rise was more manipulated than the drop. There was no reason for such a big pump when sentiments were negative. This shows that whales were playing against the market sentiments.

The "news" is supposedly that China is backing bitcoin. Which seems to be a mistranslation - they've simply passed a law on cryptography and how China wants to be a leader in cryptography, which is a whole other thing to cryptocurrency!

Red-Apple

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on October 26, 2019, 01:24:23 PM

people think the bitstamp dump must have been a ploy to close shorts or fill longs on bitmex. maybe that's true, but if so, they were playing a very dangerous game. i've seen similar selloff attempts that immediately wicked up and where other exchanges didn't go nearly as low. for example, back in may when bitstamp hit $6178 but coinbase and kraken only hit the $6600s.

i think it is mostly about the risk versus reward situation when a manipulation starts. if the reward is high enough it can justify the dangerous game they are playing.
and in most cases they don't really need to dump all the way down to the bottom they need, they usually only need to dump a little below the "stop loss" targets that most bots set (which is easy to determine in the market) and then the bots do the rest for you with their panic sells which will only grow the more they sell.

BitHodler

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Based on the charts, it would have made more sense for the price to make lower lows than to go up the way it did last days. I read an article that a lot of shorts were liquidated, which might explain the irrational buying that occurred.

Only when traders have no option but to buy Bitcoin we see these moves.... it's not that we have had any fundamental development justifying the pump we have been through.

An important indicator of shorters buying was how easily we have sold down from $10.5k to $9k because it didn't make any sense and other traders used that as an opportunity to secure very easy profits.

franky1

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the only time a price rise would be supported/sustained is if the cost of mining supports it
if people cannot mine cheap, they simply buy it instead.
those mining refuse to sell at a loss. meaning both buyers and sellers are giving the market a better value where they wont want to sell for less

the cost of mining is still not near $10k but at the most efficienct costs of ~$7.5k meaning about $8k as a minimum sell for profit
so ofcourse the price had every chance of returning to ~$8k
nothing, absolutely nothing indicated the near $10k was sustainable.
the $10k was just speculative, emotional hype froth(mini bubble layer)

Wind_FURY

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OP, I also believe the "rise" was also nothing surprising, but because of another reason. It was not "long overdue", the market is not person that thinks that it is "long overdue". Cool

It was simply the whalecumulators checking the market and liked what they saw. Plebs' collective short-selling on high margin/leverage.

They made "the call", and said,

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 26, 2019, 10:09:31 AM

Neither one was surprising to me, to be honest--but both were pretty dramatic.

Yes. The rise and fall didn't really warrant a surprise. The rise was surprising a bit because it rose after just a few hours in contrast to my belief that it would gradually rise though. The last fall happened because of a sudden dump of coins in some exchange that resulted in exceeding the demand needed, and that's why the price adjusted itself normally. On the other hand, the rise could be about the recent news of China or the one about Bakkt, or it couldn't, but the price was way too much and seeing from now, its gradually stabilizing, going back to its average price where the market could fully accept it, for now that is.

Oasisman

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Quote from: Herbert2020 on October 27, 2019, 03:37:46 AM

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 26, 2019, 10:09:31 AM

I'm not a big seeker of explanations for short-term market movements, but I do wonder what caused this last rise.

there are certain rises that don't really need any explanation in my opinion. the recent drop that we had is one of those cases doesn't need any reason except the drop itself. for example can you explain why price went from $4.1k to $10k all of a sudden earlier this year? my answer is that it went up that fast because price fell to $3k and it did not belong there.
it was a similar situation here too. price didn't belong in below $9k range so it had to come back up.

IMHO, the price movements depends on how the people/investors react to the speculations and news.
Let's say the sudden pump of Bitcoin from $7,000 to $10,000 was cause by a massive buy out because of the bullish/positive news in crypto space or they just feel like it. The market won't move unless somebody is making it move.
Though, I'm not saying your explanation is wrong. I could also be wrong, but I think that's how the market reacts.

Herbert2020

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 26, 2019, 10:09:31 AM

I'm not a big seeker of explanations for short-term market movements, but I do wonder what caused this last rise.

there are certain rises that don't really need any explanation in my opinion. the recent drop that we had is one of those cases doesn't need any reason except the drop itself. for example can you explain why price went from $4.1k to $10k all of a sudden earlier this year? my answer is that it went up that fast because price fell to $3k and it did not belong there.
it was a similar situation here too. price didn't belong in below $9k range so it had to come back up.

serjent05

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Quote from: djsugar on October 26, 2019, 09:02:37 AM

The fall came because of the news of quantum computers and since, a strong support was broken, the price was expected to undergo more drop. But instead price went up by 3k in a few hours without any news or happening to support it. The rise was more manipulated than the drop. There was no reason for such a big pump when sentiments were negative. This shows that whales were playing against the market sentiments.

It is just a coincident, it is not due to the news of quantum computer, it is because of the manipulation. If it was the news then price could have plummet way down because Bitcoin is yet to be a quantum computer resistant. Whales had been doing this kind of stuff for many years and their stash is getting bigger and bigger and it is getting easier for them to dictate the price of Bitcoin.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

when price entered the $7k range again 2 days ago it was one of the most surprising things after the $3k drop earlier this year. that drop was "manipulated".

this "rise" that we are seeing today is not at all surprising. it was long overdue and should have happened a lot sooner. we are seeing the market correction and coming back to real prices once again.

it's tempting to cry "manipulation" when the price moves against you---we've all done it. but personally, i know better by now.

people think the bitstamp dump must have been a ploy to close shorts or fill longs on bitmex. maybe that's true, but if so, they were playing a very dangerous game. i've seen similar selloff attempts that immediately wicked up and where other exchanges didn't go nearly as low. for example, back in may when bitstamp hit $6178 but coinbase and kraken only hit the $6600s.

sometimes the market absorbs supply and hammers back up; other times fear and panic take over. the mere act of dumping a few thousands coins won't determine one way or the other. the bitstamp dumper may have thought price was headed much lower than $7300.

in other words, we can't tell the difference between a whale selling the bottom and a whale who successfully "manipulated" the market into filling his bids. and tbh it doesn't matter!

gantez

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Quote from: Pearls Before Swine on October 26, 2019, 12:51:45 PM

Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!

Going to have to disagree with you on this one. The fall didn't surprise me, because btc had gone up past $10,000 too fast in my opinion, which caused the traders who drove the price to that level to sell and take their profits.

I kind of figured that the bull run wasn't over yet and that btc would resume its rise, but I mean come on...$2000 in a matter of a day? That's amazing and I was surprised to see it. I still can't pinpoint what caused it and I doubt I'll ever know, but I think it's probably all that trading on Bakkt. Wish I could tell what sorts of trades were going on there and who was doing them. It would be so sweet if we could get that kind of data from them.

I think this is a sign of last minute volatility after a slooping move down. Perhaps the big sellers caused the drop in the first place. This was also seen around this time in 2017.

Pearls Before Swine

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 08:32:59 AM

wherever i look today it seems like there are a lot of people who are surprised about the "rise", which doesn't make any sense to me because there is nothing surprising about this rise in my experience.

the only thing that surprised me was the Fall!

Going to have to disagree with you on this one. The fall didn't surprise me, because btc had gone up past $10,000 too fast in my opinion, which caused the traders who drove the price to that level to sell and take their profits.

I kind of figured that the bull run wasn't over yet and that btc would resume its rise, but I mean come on...$2000 in a matter of a day? That's amazing and I was surprised to see it. I still can't pinpoint what caused it and I doubt I'll ever know, but I think it's probably all that trading on Bakkt. Wish I could tell what sorts of trades were going on there and who was doing them. It would be so sweet if we could get that kind of data from them.

Darooghe

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If you know any whales, ask them! traders with a lot of money can easily manipulate the trading because they easily move prices up or down. the most notable manipulations pump and dump schemes are related to minor altcoins. It’s just simpler to change a price of the unknown small coin with a low price. Bitcoin is manipulated too, but lesser. majority of whales grabbed enough BTC earlier.

Hence it’s not manipulated completely by whales. most of the hard volatility are trader volume. the rest are whales, hedge funds and large investors. they don’t manipulate the price that much, they manipulate it then the traders do the rest of the work. the reason why Bitcoin fell from $20,000, because they whales exited completely, then sold into traders on the down trend. All they had to do was wait. It’s predictable what happens when the whales exit the market, it keeps collapsing as people panic at each level.

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It's hard to define manipulated
Maybe the fall was because a person with a LOT of BTC decided to sell the coins and the market followed, maybe was a company, we'll never know exactly, there are a lot of players in this game and the fall surprised me to, but this rise...I don't know Huh

The Sceptical Chymist

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Neither one was surprising to me, to be honest--but both were pretty dramatic.

I'm not a big seeker of explanations for short-term market movements, but I do wonder what caused this last rise. There was some news out of China, statements by the president or whatever and record volume on Bakkt too, so it could be any of those or none of them. The only thing I care about is whether bitcoin can hold onto this gain and not fall back into the $8300 range again. Usually when the price pops like this that's exactly what happens, so we'll see.

Everyone cries manipulation when crap like this goes on and it can't be adequately explained, but can you imagine how risky it would be to try to manipulate the price of bitcoin? I'm not sure what whale or institution would have the balls to attempt something like that, because they could easily lose--not to mention that their motivation for even trying isn't clear. So I'm pretty sure this wasn't true market manipulation, but damned if I have a way to tell for sure.

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Quote from: Red-Apple on October 26, 2019, 09:12:16 AM

the "news" about quantum computers is not a new one. not to mention that it has nothing to do with bitcoin as they are far far away behind the day they can even get close to breaking ECDLP. the only thing that we had was FUD and manipulation.

I do not believe that these FUD news will make any difference in the market valuation but the future contracts can be the reason for these rapid movements other than that i do not find any reasons for these rapid variation in price in the past few days, if not for the manipulation in the market i do not see the market recovering like this in a few hours and may be institutional manipulators might be behind these market movement.

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