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Topic: bitfloor needs your help! - page 33. (Read 177467 times)

member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
September 04, 2012, 06:34:39 PM
If a bankruptcy is filed and you had $ or BTC at bitfloor, you should be included on the list of creditors, and you'll get periodic mailings about the progress of the matter.
Now we are getting to the really interesting stuff.  If BitFloor does not have any information on how to contact you, how will you get periodic mailings?

If some other legal action is filed, there's a pretty good chance you'll be included as a party, which would mean you'll get copies of filings,
See my question above.


The best thing to do is to make sure that BitFloor does have a mailing address for you - then there's no excuse for not giving you notice of proceedings. It's possible that a judge would order them to send notice via E-mail; but it's also possible that won't happen. The standard in the legal community is to communicate via postal mail, and the assumption is that everyone's got a postal address where they can be notified of things.

People who don't want to participate in that system don't have to, but they'll also need to get their news second-hand.

hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 06:30:13 PM
I suspect that if BitFloor's legal counsel advised them against further communications via this forum, that they would not let their creditors know via this site or forum.  As a matter of fact, I suspect that we won't see much further communication from BitFloor via this forum at this time unless they find a way to come back online and cover all losses.
So is it now on me to remember to check Bitfloor.com or this thread a month, two months, three months from now to see if there's been unveiled a way for me to reclaim the part of my property that wasn't stolen?

If they have your contact details, then they would be obligated to inform you of what's going on using the contact methods they have for you.  One of the biggest dangers of using services which do not require real life contact details - or choosing not to provide them - is that you may miss out on important information.

Quote
It's also possible for a creditor to file a petition in bankruptcy court to force an uncooperative/insolvent debtor into bankruptcy.

While this is true, there is usually a requirement that you make a demand for payment of the debt and that it go unpaid for a period of time following that demand.  While a debtor is actively seeking solutions such as borrowing, selling personal assets, or selling equity in the enterprise, it's not necessarily smart to immediately petition for involuntary bankruptcy.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
September 04, 2012, 06:29:26 PM
To my knowledge, no USD deposits receive interest correct?

If interest was being earned then those deposits would be a different pool of "customer property" than the USDs deposited for the purpose of trading (which is the same purpose that my BTCs were deposited for -- only for the purpose of trading).
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
September 04, 2012, 06:29:09 PM
. . . savvy enough not to leave a lot of value in the hands of someone who leaves an unencrypted wallet on a Linode VPS.

I want to be clear that while that sounds harsh, and I do view this as a pretty significant screw-up (in that several hundred thousand dollars have been lost) I respect the way Roman has handled this so far in terms of (apparently) being open with the community, trying to fix things, and in seeking help when he figured out that he was in over his head. I don't see what he could have done better other than not let this happen in the first place, which is a lot easier to say than to do.

My personal guess is that Bitfloor is dead but Roman will go on to do other, better things, wiser from the experience.

And so will the people who just learned an expensive lesson about the difference between an insured deposit at a real financial institution and an entry in a database table on a Linode VPS.

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 04, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
If a bankruptcy is filed and you had $ or BTC at bitfloor, you should be included on the list of creditors, and you'll get periodic mailings about the progress of the matter.
Now we are getting to the really interesting stuff.  If BitFloor does not have any information on how to contact you, how will you get periodic mailings?

If some other legal action is filed, there's a pretty good chance you'll be included as a party, which would mean you'll get copies of filings,
See my question above.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 04, 2012, 06:22:56 PM
So is it now on me to remember to check Bitfloor.com or this thread a month, two months, three months from now to see if there's been unveiled a way for me to reclaim the part of my property that wasn't stolen?
Good question.  Here's two for you.  If it turns out that the only way for anyone to regain any of their property, Bitcoin or USD, is to file a petition with the court, will you bother to do so?  How many will?
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
September 04, 2012, 06:22:34 PM
I suspect that if BitFloor's legal counsel advised them against further communications via this forum, that they would not let their creditors know via this site or forum.  As a matter of fact, I suspect that we won't see much further communication from BitFloor via this forum at this time unless they find a way to come back online and cover all losses.
So is it now on me to remember to check Bitfloor.com or this thread a month, two months, three months from now to see if there's been unveiled a way for me to reclaim the part of my property that wasn't stolen?

If a bankruptcy is filed and you had $ or BTC at bitfloor, you should be included on the list of creditors, and you'll get periodic mailings about the progress of the matter.

If some other legal action is filed, there's a pretty good chance you'll be included as a party, which would mean you'll get copies of filings, unless you hire an attorney, who'd handle them for you.

But, generally, this is how the world works. If you entrust someone else with your stuff, and shit happens to them where they have trouble giving back all of the stuff they've promised to others, it's gonna be ugly and inconvenient. This is even how it works if someone comes to your house and takes all of your shit involuntarily.

So the trick is to not let it happen in the first place.

Ask the Bitcoinica depositors how that claim process is going.

At least here, there's some chance that this will be handled in an orderly fashion in a single jurisdiction, instead of the international clusterfuck that is Bitcoinica.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
September 04, 2012, 06:16:56 PM
It's also possible for a creditor to file a petition in bankruptcy court to force an uncooperative/insolvent debtor into bankruptcy.

There are tons of interesting legal projects here, the real question is whether or not anyone's lost enough money to make it worth pursuing, and if they're inclined to possibly throw good money after bad.

My hunch is that people who are sophisticated enough to maneuver through the issues were also savvy enough not to leave a lot of value in the hands of someone who leaves an unencrypted wallet on a Linode VPS. And if they made that mistake, they probably will choose to treat it as a learning experience and move on (the funds were probably intended for speculation, so their loss is likely to be inconsequential) rather than fight for control of a rapidly diminishing pool of assets.

People who were foolish enough (if there are any left after previous exchange disasters and the Pirate swindle) to leave most/all of their funds in an online exchange probably don't have any resources left with which to fight about this.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 04, 2012, 06:15:46 PM
Well if Bitfloor is enjoined by a court order they would be required to inform their creditors of that material fact.  It would be in their best interest to do so (prevent filing of additional suits for a matter already heard by the court).  The court order would also become public record.
This is true, but I doubt that bitcointalk.org will be the method that legal counsel uses to disseminate this information. 

Of course all that is academic because no injunction will be granted.
This may be true.  Only time will tell.
full member
Activity: 120
Merit: 144
September 04, 2012, 06:12:46 PM
I suspect that if BitFloor's legal counsel advised them against further communications via this forum, that they would not let their creditors know via this site or forum.  As a matter of fact, I suspect that we won't see much further communication from BitFloor via this forum at this time unless they find a way to come back online and cover all losses.
So is it now on me to remember to check Bitfloor.com or this thread a month, two months, three months from now to see if there's been unveiled a way for me to reclaim the part of my property that wasn't stolen?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
September 04, 2012, 06:11:41 PM
I suspect that if BitFloor's legal counsel advised them against further communications via this forum, that they would not let their creditors know via this site or forum.  As a matter of fact, I suspect that we won't see much further communication from BitFloor via this forum at this time unless they find a way to come back online and cover all losses.

Well if Bitfloor is enjoined by a court order they would be required to inform their creditors of that material fact.   They don't have to use this forum or their website but that would be the most effective means of communication. They don't need to explain the injunction or provide any other information but they do need to let their creditors know.   The court order would also become public record.

Of course all that is academic because no injunction will be granted.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 04, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
. . .  If Bitfloor is enjoined from making payments I am sure he will let creditors know via this site or forum. . .
I suspect that if BitFloor's legal counsel advised them against further communications via this forum, that they would not let their creditors know via this site or forum.  As a matter of fact, I suspect that we won't see much further communication from BitFloor via this forum at this time unless they find a way to come back online and cover all losses.
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
September 04, 2012, 06:07:42 PM
Full text:
[...]
As such this amendment refers only to a limit on the government's ability to deprive you of your property without due process, and nothing to do with BitFloor's ability to deprive you of what you believe to be your property until they can determine their legal responsibilities.

It's even better than that - the 5th amendment, itself, only applies to the US federal government - it can be applied to state governments through the privileges & immunities clause of the 14th amendment, which itself has some similar due process language that might be of interest to our legal scholars.

Of course, they're still going to have to make the leap from the constitution's limits on the behavior of governments to controlling the behavior of individuals, which they will likely find impossible; though with just the right mix of capital letters and accusations of Communism it might be possible. If that's not strong enough medicine, season liberally (ha!) with Halliburton, Blackwater, Vince Foster, Oliver North, Obama's birth certificate, Jack Ruby, the Mafia, Paula Jones, and cocaine in south-central LA to taste.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 06:05:54 PM

Tthose with BTCs can get an injunction to freeze the USD funds but apparently nobody cares


Bitcoinica losses would have been substantially reduced had users sought injunctive relief.

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 04, 2012, 06:04:20 PM
I wonder how much profit has been gained by keeping your BTC in an online wallet for day trading vs. the amount stolen to hacks for keeping them on insecure online systems.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
September 04, 2012, 06:01:54 PM
. . .Those with BTCs can get an injunction to freeze the USD funds but apparently nobody cares
Why are you so sure that this isn't already happening?

Because there were only crickets after this:

Who will cooperate in filing an injunction?

I do hope that is happening.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
September 04, 2012, 06:01:34 PM
Well no.  The last sentence is correct but the rest isn't.

IF under an injunction bitfloor would be prohibited by law to make further repayment of any of its creditors.  However no injunction has been filed and certainly none is already enjoining bitfloor from resolving business debts in the manner it sees fit.  If Bitfloor is enjoined from making payments I am sure he will let creditors know via this site or forum.

I would question the probability of a BTC injunction being successful but I do concede that if a judge enjoined bitfloor from paying any of its creditors pending bankruptcy protection then you would be correct.

Quote
Tthose (sic) with BTCs can get an injunction to freeze the USD funds but apparently nobody cares
Well technically those with BTC (myself included) could SEEK an injunction.  It isn't that I don't care I just feel it has a 0.0% chance of being successful.  A sought but unsuccessful injunction would not provide any relief.

Injunctions are only granted where "no relief under the law" is possible.  Even if the claim otherwise had merit (which it probably doesn't) it would not be possible to show that their is no other "relief under the law".

For example if someone is going to tear down a historical building getting an injunction is viable because dollars can't compensate for the loss of the historical building if later the plaintiffs win in court.  The burden for injunctions are high as due to their time sensitive nature, they preempt the other business of the court.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 04, 2012, 05:59:25 PM
. . .Those with BTCs can get an injunction to freeze the USD funds but apparently nobody cares
Why are you so sure that this isn't already happening?
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
September 04, 2012, 05:58:04 PM
It simply isn't worth the filing costs for a claim with a snowball in hell's chance of even being heard.
This.

And my guess is that you and TC would be two of the bigger holders.
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