Topic: bitfloor needs your help! - page 35. (Read 177459 times)

This is unrelated to anything, but holy crap, Roman?  I simultaneously can and cannot believe that it's you behind Bitfloor.  I haven't paid much attention to Bitcoin in the past few months, so this is really a shock to me.  Good to see you did something incredibly useful with your software skills after Robocup, and I wish the best in continuing the operation of the site.

BF was my primary source of USD=>BTC so I feel your pain.  It very well could have been me so I feel your pain... esp with the price I would not have bought now so I narrowly missed the trap on this  one.

Sorry

Exactly, and as such, it would be legally dubious for BitFloor to allow any withdrawl of any funds USD or otherwise, until due process of law has determined exactly what the TOS requires of them.

Accusing me of "anger" is not the best way to rebut anything I've claimed.  The ALLCAPS are for emphasis, not rageposting.

Note that not a single exclamation point was used in my post.  I'll use bold next time, so as not to further confuse you.   

These are all things for the legal council (and if it goes to U.S. court, the judge) to decide in order to figure out what actions are appropriate. That's where the "due process of law" comes in. You're entitled to your process, BitFloor is entitled to theirs. BitFloor seeking legal council is where he ensures that he is acting in a way most within the law. Your process would be serving BitFloor and/or suing them.

Things are not that simple that withdrawals can happen just for the solvent parts of the business held; welcome to the world of BitCoin, where everything is without absolute legal precedent (yet). If a legal precedent can be set that the BTC has value, it would be illegal for them to use any portion of the assets (including remaining balances held for what wasn't hacked) to pay out to anybody until the appropriate process on reimbursing has been determined in court.

This WILL not be a quick process. The only quick process would be if the coins were returned by the hacker, or if someone invested BTC in BitFloor in exchange for ownership (or a portion of). I'd imagine this case (albeit not a likely one) is the one that BitFloor is hoping for the most.

Best case for USD holders (and worst case for BTC holders) is that his legal council (or the court system) determines that BTC will be considered "worthless" and that USD should be distributed to account holders as it's the only part of BitFloor that needs to be legally held solvent. However, I can just about guarantee that if this happens, anyone holding a large amount of BTC will file an injunction and appeal, which will almost certainly prevent payout of USD funds from happening quickly.

Hang on folks, this is likely to be an interesting one, especially since it's occurring in the oh-so-litigious US.

US insolvency requirements are "due process of law".  It's up to those who don't believe that US insolvency law should be applied in this case to petition the court with on point arguments and case law supporting that assertion - the cost of defending against any such actions will come out of the bankrupt estate.  Unless USD holders can establish that they're secured or preferential creditors as defined by US insolvency law, there are no legal grounds on which they can be paid in full in preference to other unsecured creditors without the agreement of those other creditors.

So last week I deposited about $1000 in bitfloor and hadn't even yet made a single trade with it. While it was extra savings money and I can survive without it, I am quite upset about not being able to pull my money out....

I have not engaged in any business with BitFloor, so I'm not aware of their TOS.  Do you have a copy of that TOS?  Can you post a copy of it here?

That would depend on BitFloor's TOS.  I admit to never reading it, but who would be dumb enough to use an exchange that enforces communist bankster Corzine-style pooled accounts and shared liability for losses?  (Me, maybe...  ) 

I understand your frustration, but your anger will not help anything here.

Wrong.  Presumption of ownership goes to the segregated account holders.

BitFloor will be sued successfully for holding USD without their OWNER'S consent, unless there is a clause in the TOS stating that any USD deposited into BitFloor automatically becomes part of a single pool of assets with shared liability.

If the communist scumbag Corzine supporters wish to claw back USD that never belonged to them, they are welcome to try AFTER the rightful owners get paid, not before.

Oh wow I nearly missed that one.

Nice "hack"

Actually, that clause is exactly the problem.  Until due process of law, it is not legally clear whether any of the USD controlled by bitfloor is the property of those who had BTC on deposit, the property of bitfloor, or solely the property of those who have USD on deposit with bitfloor.  Bitfloor therefore cannot legally give USD to anyone until due process determines exactly whose property each and every $0.01 is.

Au contraire, US law is perfectly clear on the matter:

Unfortunately for those of us who had significant USD balances at Bitfloor, what others are saying is correct: Roman must now cease all activity — even activity that many of us would consider "the right thing to do" — and seek legal counsel. Assuming everything is handled sanely in the court system (a big assumption), we might expect a refund of our USD balances in a few months — either all or in part, depending on whether the balances were legally segregated and allocated, which I doubt they were.

Doesn't anyone learn a goddamned thing from previous hacks? Christ.

This is not at all clear under US law, which would presumably apply given Bitfloor's ties to the US.

I'm sorry your bitcoins were stolen, but please stop trying to steal my Bitfloor USD to make up for it.  

Segregated accounts are segregated.  Your endorsement of MFGlobal style account pooling is unethical and shameful!

To Hell with your communist bankster logic and the (rare) corrupt courts that recognize it.  500 years of organic common law disagree.

Those are my USD, not yours, so please STFU about clawing back what was never your property to begin with.

My USD did not magically become your property just because your bitcoins were stolen.  That's freaking asinine, you should know better!

Holding our USD without our consent is illegal.  BitFloor must start accepting and processing USD withdrawals ASAP.

This is the best option for you. Given the size of the loss (assuming the courts system would hold up a value for the BTC lost if action was taken against you), you're looking at a huge risk if you handle things inappropriately and any one of your users files any sort of legal action against you. We appreciate the notice, but you need to cover your butt, especially if you're in the US. At current exchange rate, a loss of a quarter million U.S. dollars worth of a commodity is gigantic and definitely warrants legal council on how to proceed.

You seem like a nice guy and I really appreciated the service when it was running before all this. Assuming you're not the perpetrator (something that a few members might suggest in speculation), I wish you the best and hope things can be resolved. Your personally liability for this may be incredible compared to any sort of profit you may have realized for providing the service. Looking out for your personal future (not even the future of BitFloor), I would seek immediate legal council.

Sadly, if you seek GOOD legal council... Their first piece of advice would probably to take the site down with a notice and keep as quiet as possible until everything is figured out.

Best of luck.

I don't know anything about "bitcoin consultancy," but I do work in the network security industry, and I will tell you that security experts make six figures (USD).