[BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast) - page 86.

DeaDTerra

donator

Activity: 1064

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Quote from: Isokivi on September 19, 2013, 12:17:29 PM

Cba to read trough this (again) so sorry if this question has been answered: What hashrate does one share of IceDrill.ASIC represent, or amount to ?

With the current amount of shares sold and if you count the investor protection clause (this will expire once 0.0016 BTc has been paid to each share), each share is worth 12.72 Mhash, without the investor protection they are worth 10 mhash.
//DeaDTerra

CanOpener

newbie

Activity: 34

Merit: 0

uh... flooding the market? how many shares have changed hands to 'flood' the market? i think anyone with common sense knows to stop selling if he is pushing share price down. no offense to you if you would actually do that....

just curious, are you talking about greenshoes? Even in securities IPO, I have never heard of an i-bank putting up a 'wall' at issue price. So, what is the rationale that issuer needs to put up a 'wall'?

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 07:47:40 AM

We are losing track of the issue that concerns people most right now. Many shares have been sold @ bitfunder below the official IPO price of 0.0014 BTC and are flooding the market now, causing a price drop and a loss for everyone who bought shares for the official price.

Either this has always been part of the plan or an unfortunate and never intended event, but we need a fix.

Either a buy back wall @ 0.00138 BTC or a prohibition to sell shares before IceDrill starts mining for those people who bought before the IPO would do the trick for us.

Isokivi

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Items flashing here available at btctrinkets.com

Cba to read trough this (again) so sorry if this question has been answered: What hashrate does one share of IceDrill.ASIC represent, or amount to ?

will

full member

Activity: 179

Merit: 100

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 07:47:40 AM

We are losing track of the issue that concerns people most right now. Many shares have been sold @ bitfunder below the official IPO price of 0.0014 BTC and are flooding the market now, causing a price drop and a loss for everyone who bought shares for the official price.

Either this has always been part of the plan or an unfortunate and never intended event, but we need a fix.

I disagree on the requirement for a fix. The statement that the block sales are flooding the market is factually incorrect, and publically verifiable:

We made 3 block sales. For 2 of these trades the shares have been transferred to their owners. For the other one (3MM shares) the owner asked that we hold their shares until IPO completion.

See: https://bitfunder.com/assetlist
The two owners mentioned above, represented by 1NJK4iPhxKnYG4t9bbJWSzM4c1teTvvkAD and 1EbNE1UUHxSuJVvanhsV6q1suAqtAFhizN hold 6MM and 2.5MM shares respectively. That has not changed, they have not sold their shares into the market.

On that same list you'll see 13MM shares. They're in our possession. 10MM will simply be destroyed if not sold by 30 September, resulting in a removal of the current 6.25MM ask. The other 3MM will then be transferred to their rightful owner.

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

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Quote from: bouchon2cul on September 19, 2013, 10:27:46 AM

Since HashFast states prices in fiat (and other miners, I still don't see why reinvest only has to be HashFast), why wouldn't a rising BTC simply give more hash rate to IceDrill?

Because most existing funds were already paid to Hashfast - so any gain from the increase in price of BTC gos to Hashfast not Icedrill. That was always clear from day 1 - it's not something that should be surprising.

Dates were always published when payments would be made to Hashfast - and the funds raised so far (less those held back for infrastructure) were paid in August. I know that - and I don't even have any special interest in this security (it's just one of many that I trade).

bouchon2cul

newbie

Activity: 21

Merit: 0

Since HashFast states prices in fiat (and other miners, I still don't see why reinvest only has to be HashFast), why wouldn't a rising BTC simply give more hash rate to IceDrill? It's not a PMB a fixed hash/share right?

VolanicEruptor

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: DeaDTerra on September 19, 2013, 10:14:08 AM

There is a lot of talk about that the share prices are going down.
I would just like to give you my personal view,
If a share has underlying assets priced in USD such as IceDrill.ASIC has (HF chips and equipment) and the base currency is BTC.
Then if the BTC goes up in value in terms of USD, then the underlying assets lose value in BTC.
For example,
You purchase a gold bar that costs 100 USD with 1 BTC (when Bitcoin is 100 USD a piece),
The BTC price then goes up to 130 USD per Bitcoin, while the gold price stays at 100 USD per piece.
This will cause the gold bar to be worth 0.77 BTC/100 USD.
Essentially purchasing assets which have assets priced in USD is shorting Bitcoins,
Now as this is a mining operation the variables are more complex, but because we are not yet mining the above is still true.

On the flip side if the price of Bitcoin goes down to say 50 USD per Bitcoins,
Then your gold bar is worth 2 BTC/100 USD.
The underlying assets have not changed, the currency we use to value it has.

That is just my take on things, everyone is entitled to their own opinion

As for the 7 million shares, Eisenhower it is no longer a hard limit but a soft limit and hence do not need to be sold for the IPO to be deemed a success.
//DeaDTerra

All share valuation should stay strictly in BTC:
If BTC stock share price is valued based on a projected 50% annual return,
eg. 1 share = 1 BTC, which shareholders have valued it at expecting .5BTC/year,
then that is exactly what the valuation will stay at, despite what a BTC itself is worth in fiat.
It's all about projected earnings in BTC/share. USD has nothing to do with it until you cash out.

DeaDTerra

donator

Activity: 1064

Merit: 1000

There is a lot of talk about that the share prices are going down.
I would just like to give you my personal view,
If a share has underlying assets priced in USD such as IceDrill.ASIC has (HF chips and equipment) and the base currency is BTC.
Then if the BTC goes up in value in terms of USD, then the underlying assets lose value in BTC.
For example,
You purchase a gold bar that costs 100 USD with 1 BTC (when Bitcoin is 100 USD a piece),
The BTC price then goes up to 130 USD per Bitcoin, while the gold price stays at 100 USD per piece.
This will cause the gold bar to be worth 0.77 BTC/100 USD.
Essentially purchasing assets which have assets priced in USD is shorting Bitcoins,
Now as this is a mining operation the variables are more complex, but because we are not yet mining the above is still true.

On the flip side if the price of Bitcoin goes down to say 50 USD per Bitcoins,
Then your gold bar is worth 2 BTC/100 USD.
The underlying assets have not changed, the currency we use to value it has.

That is just my take on things, everyone is entitled to their own opinion

As for the 7 million shares, Eisenhower it is no longer a hard limit but a soft limit and hence do not need to be sold for the IPO to be deemed a success.
//DeaDTerra

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 09:55:16 AM

So what happens when this course continues and those 7mio outstanding shares dont sell? The IPO fails! What will happen when the IPO fails? Icedrill will go bankruptcy and all your shares value will drop to 0. So its not about protecting other investors, its about protecting your own money!

Think you missed a change in the contract. Even if no more shares sell Icedrill now proceeds - just with the private share count reduced so public investors get 10 GH/share (or whatever the guaranteed amount was). It IS better for investors if more of the shares sell - but not enormously so.

Failure to sell more shares is pretty horrible for the issuer - but not a disaster for investors (if they make a loss then they wouldn't necessarily have done a lot better even if all shares sold).

EDIT: When I say it's horrible for the issuer that assumes their profit was intended to come from mining. If their profit was always intended to come from some deal with/investment in the hardware supplier then obviously they're still fine.

Eisenhower34

legendary

Activity: 906

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So what happens when this course continues and those 7mio outstanding shares dont sell? The IPO fails! What will happen when the IPO fails? Icedrill will go bankruptcy and all your shares value will drop to 0. So its not about protecting other investors, its about protecting your own money!

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 09:37:20 AM

Quote

On your buyback idea - with what resources?

Ask some investors to create a buy wall... with 0.00138 BTC its still a 1.5% gain for the investors...

Why would anyone who wanted to buy shares create a bidwall at .00138 when they can get the shares cheaper by waiting? The single main thing driving the price down is the apparent panic by some people to sell their shares - that sends a very clear signal to anyone actually intending to buy that if they wait a bit longer they may be able to buy even cheaper.

It isn't the responsibility of investors to bail out other investors at above market rates.

If you hold shares and believe they're UNDERVALUED then you should be looking to buy not sell.
If you hold shares and believe they're OVERVALUED then why did you buy them for more than current market price? As surely they were even more overvalued then?
If you were just trading and got caught with them then that's a risk you take trading.

I got caught very slightly with these but that happens from time to time and is no big deal (and of course I bought below IPO so aren't too fussed - just can't flip for a profit yet). If it falls a bit more I may well even buy some more - but all the time I see posts like yours I know there's a good chance they'll go even lower so there's no rush to buy even if I think they're good value at present (I'm not making any comment either way on what I believe their value is).

Eisenhower34

legendary

Activity: 906

Merit: 1002

Quote from: Deprived on September 19, 2013, 09:43:42 AM

It's too late to do that now if that wasn't a condition imposed when the sale occurred. You can't sell someone something then later impose conditions on it - even when, sensibly, those conditions should have been imposed in the first place. And how would such a ban be implemented anyway? Only practical way to do it is NOT to transfer the shares until after IPO has ended - and the horse has already bolted on that option.

Valid point... but maybe some friendly headsup that they are ruining the IPO with their behaviour and destroying the value of their remaining shares when the IPO fails would be enough reason to accept those new terms?

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

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Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 09:37:20 AM

Please read again:
prohibition to sell shares before IceDrill starts mining for those people who bought before the IPO

I hate people who cannot read and try to make an argument...

It's too late to do that now if that wasn't a condition imposed when the sale occurred. You can't sell someone something then later impose conditions on it - even when, sensibly, those conditions should have been imposed in the first place. And how would such a ban be implemented anyway? Only practical way to do it is NOT to transfer the shares until after IPO has ended - and the horse has already bolted on that option.

Eisenhower34

legendary

Activity: 906

Merit: 1002

Please read again:
prohibition to sell shares before IceDrill starts mining for those people who bought before the IPO

So everyone who bought @ 0.0014 and wants to cash out and take a loss isnt affected by this rule!

I hate people who cannot read and try to make an argument...

Quote

On your buyback idea - with what resources?

Ask some investors to create a buy wall... with 0.00138 BTC its still a 1.5% gain for the investors...

bouchon2cul

newbie

Activity: 21

Merit: 0

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on September 19, 2013, 07:47:40 AM

We are losing track of the issue that concerns people most right now. Many shares have been sold @ bitfunder below the official IPO price of 0.0014 BTC and are flooding the market now, causing a price drop and a loss for everyone who bought shares for the official price.

Either this has always been part of the plan or an unfortunate and never intended event, but we need a fix.

Either a buy back wall @ 0.00138 BTC or a prohibition to sell shares before IceDrill starts mining for those people who bought before the IPO would do the trick for us.

I can't believe it. You want to forbid people from selling below a price? But no one would be buying. That's basically forbidding anyone from selling his shares.
People are allowed to stop believing and cut their losses. Or simply need some urgent cash.

On your buyback idea - with what resources?

What's the point here? Share prices reflect people's sentiment. Price fixing does not work; shares would just be sold on the black market (actually the already are, see the guy with his 10000 shares!).

Eisenhower34

legendary

Activity: 906

Merit: 1002

We are losing track of the issue that concerns people most right now. Many shares have been sold @ bitfunder below the official IPO price of 0.0014 BTC and are flooding the market now, causing a price drop and a loss for everyone who bought shares for the official price.

Either this has always been part of the plan or an unfortunate and never intended event, but we need a fix.

Either a buy back wall @ 0.00138 BTC or a prohibition to sell shares before IceDrill starts mining for those people who bought before the IPO would do the trick for us.

bouchon2cul

newbie

Activity: 21

Merit: 0

I see. So what is IceDrill exactly? The HashFast revenue stream protection program?

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

The miner protection plan offers no useful protection. Not having it is pretty irrelevant. It's just a way to get people who lost money buying rigs to spend more money buying unpopulated boards from the same people who just sold you loss-making boards with chips already installed.

Which isn't to say they'll definitely make a loss - just that if the rigs make a large loss then the MPP is worthless without a time machine to deliver the chips at the time you started mining rather than at an undefined point more than 90 days later.

bouchon2cul

newbie

Activity: 21

Merit: 0

Quote from: crumbs on September 17, 2013, 03:50:05 PM

Quote from: bouchon2cul on September 17, 2013, 03:45:27 PM

Quote from: crumbs on September 17, 2013, 03:29:51 PM

Quote from: bouchon2cul on September 17, 2013, 03:19:27 PM

From my own calculations, if IceDrill gets 363 Th (the best case), they get a Gh for $6.7.
However https://hashfast.com/shop/babyjet/ is advertised as "As Low as $2.80 / GHash"
I know it doesn't include the electricity and hosting, but 350W, I can certainly handle it at home.

Could someone confirm my calculation?

The "as low as 2.80 per GH/s" is misleading -- they're counting the extra *chips* you will receive from their miner protection program *if* your miner fails to ROI. You will get those chips without the supporting circuitry etc., and three months after the date you receive your miner.

Edit: The 3 months in the future part is the real nasty -- hashpower later is not the same as hashpower today Cry

Sure but then the miner protection program does what it does: protect me.

It's certainly better than nothing, but i'm not sure how much protection that program offers. If the BOM to make those chips into hashing miners costs more than the coins you'll mine with the finished product, it'll simply put you further into the red.

I don't want to argue the point here -- simply answered your question.

OK thanks. I did the calculations without the program, now both options (shares or miner) look pretty bad. Sad

VolanicEruptor

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Looks like some people are getting smart, and getting out when they're supposed to.. expect .0009 soon!

Topic: [BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast) - page 86. (Read 378562 times)