Topic: [BitFunder] TU.SILVER -- Interim Report April 12th, 2013 - page 6. (Read 12890 times)

No, coinabul charges  ~2.56 BTC/oz for a 1/2oz round while we only charge ~1.6 BTC/oz at current prices. We buy our 1/2oz rounds from a different supplier. I can also buy industrial supply (cross section cuts off of dole bars for example) which is very cheap. I'm going to have a look at that for our next big purchase.

But you are correct in the assumption we are loss leading during the IPO phase. That window will begin to close when we release our first financial report in a couple of days. As soon as DeaDTerra gives me that financial report for review At that moment I am confident investors will be as happy about TU.SILVER as I am.

Anyway sorry about the report, the date got mangled. Try the link again? http://kongzi.ca/silver/20130218TSR.pdf
Thanks for the comments

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Incidentally if you bought your latest silver from Coinabul then surely, unless you're selling at a loss, your thread title is incorrect - as THEY must be cheaper than you

The fourth TU.SILVER market report has now been released.

There is some very interesting price action in the markets this morning and it would behoove anyone invested in Silver, Bitcoins, or TU.SILVER to read this report and check the facts for themselves. I truly believe this morning's price action is unique on the 60 day chart.

You can view it online at: http://kongzi.ca/silver/20130218TSR.pdf

Please share your questions and comments regarding this report. It's our best one yet!

I am pleased to announce we've just purchased an additional 20 oz. of silver from Coinabul.com! We support the community.

Due to the bitcoin price increase, I can already offer this silver to you for less than I paid for it! The current ask price on TU.SILVER is just 1.415 BTC/oz, and falling! This is creating a huge buying opportunity. I am in shock at the current price. This is going to put in a bottom like we have never seen. I'm buying silver at these prices. Are you?

And the spread on TU.SILVER is in your favor! We buy back for just 1.414 BTC/oz. That's a spread of less than 0.1%. So you know we are committed to honest weights and measures. There's no 5% gouge-spread here! Just place a limit order at the bid or ask if you don't see the depth you want and we will do our very best to fill your order.

This new silver is in the form of twenty Sunshine Minting 1oz bars. These beautiful bars are produced by the legendary Sunshine Minting company, the very same as the manufacturer of the private Liberty Dollar coins.

I've included a promo picture below and will be posting actual photos of the bars when they arrive. Please see the gallery under "Profile --> Images" on the TU.SILVER asset page for more great photos of our bars and coins!

I am pleased to announce we've just purchased an additional 20 oz. of silver from Amagi metals! We support the community.

Due to the bitcoin price increase, I can already offer this silver to you for less than I paid for it! The current ask price on TU.SILVER is just 1.844 BTC/oz, and falling! This is creating a huge buying opportunity. I can't believe silver is so cheap now.

The new silver is in the form of twenty 2013 1oz Canadian Maples. They're very beautiful coins. Very thick. I've included a promo picture below and will be posting actual photos of the coins when they arrive. Please see the gallery under "Profile --> Images" on the TU.SILVER asset page for more great photos of our coins!

Dear Cryptocoin Investor.

My goal with TU.SILVER is to change people's lives.

Since I started TU.SILVER on BitFunder approximately two weeks ago, I've almost completely sold out the 38oz. of silver I had ordered to start the fund. I was not at all prepared for the incredible demand TU.SILVER faced -- we currently have twenty-five times the liquidity of BTC-TC's GOLD fund. I am now faced with a decision. I need to order more silver. But what kind of silver, and how much? I'd like to get some opinions not just of shareholders but also of people who would like to remain critical of me and my business. My goal here is not to upset anyone by doing something someone sees as dishonest. So I am asking for opinions.

1. The question of "what kind?"
If I order more 1/2oz rounds, I have to pay a coin premium of more than $1.50 per 1/2oz coin. Shipping is also about 2x as much as with good delivery silver. But if I buy something like a dole bar, there may come a time I cannot honor redemptions in silver for "5 shares" unless I cut up the dole bar. And I would hate to do that. What should I do? One idea I had was similar to how "fractional reserve" operates. Most investors probably will not want to redeem for physical. So maybe keeping half the fund in 1/2oz rounds and half in dole bars or other forms of good delivery silver is a good idea? It also makes sense for vault storage. Since that is what we are aiming for it is much cheaper to store silver in bars vs. coin sheets. Opinions please. Should our next order be a dole bar, 10oz or 5oz bars, 1oz rounds, or stick with the 1/2oz?

2. The question of "how much"?
The second issue is how much silver to order. I can order another 20 ounces just with cash on hand from previous sales. Any more than that and I would need to raise capital by selling unbacked shares. But the more I order the cheaper the price is, and also the cheaper shipping becomes. If I buy a dole bar vs. 1/2 oz coins for example, I can lock down a price of around 1.8BTC/oz vs. 2BTC/oz. It would take the silver 1-2 weeks to get here.

Were I to pre-order shares like that I would like to see commitments on the new silver from any interested investor. You would be buying in at the absolute rock-bottom low price of around 1.8 BTC/OZ (compare to 2BTC/oz and up at online coin shops). If I could get some commitments and lock down a price like that then everybody wins.

In any other case I need to wait for another 30 days to buy more silver. And i'm worried that it will kill our IPO momentum during a once in a lifetime silver buying opportunity.

The TU.SILVER Report
A comparison of Bitcoin-based Precious Metals Investments
Part 2 of 2
February 4th, 2013

Dear investor; it is our pleasure to present the following free report. Today’s date is Monday, February 4th, 2013. First let’s run down today’s price action in the markets:

Source   Gold   Silver
kitco.com   $1668.00   $31.60
Mt. Gox Weighted Average   $20.58078   $20.58078
Average Price in Bitcoins   81.0465 BTC/oz   1.5354 BTC/oz

The Crystal Ball says:
Metals were flat last week or marginally higher. The real story is the rise of Bitcoin, creating all-time lows in gold and silver and signaling a buying opportunity for those long bitcoins.

Today’s special is the finale of last week’s comparison of the various Precious Metals vehicles available to cryptocoin investors.
Here’s the list of funds we will discuss today:

Symbol   Market Cap   7 day volume   Spread   Depth   Proof of Ownership
GOLD   167 BTC   2.13 BTC   7.6%   7.8 + 16.8   Yes
BTC-GOLD   21.33 BTC   0.11 BTC   400%   2 + 0.7    Yes
LTC-SILVER   10.80 BTC   0.07 BTC   16.7%   0.0035 + 0.01   Yes
TU.SILVER   83.6 BTC   32.71 BTC   4.9%   9.5 + 9.7   Yes

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Investing in a Precious Metals fund has benefits over storing the metals yourself. However, not all precious metals funds were created equal. In this report we go over what you need to know to make an informed choice in the cryptocoin precious metals market.




Market Cap
1.   GOLD (187 BTC)
John Galt

2.   TU.SILVER (83.6 BTC)
TU Group

3.   BTC-GOLD & LTC-GOLD (21.33 BTC)
Carnth

4.   LTC-SILVER (10.8 BTC)
SaltySpitoon

Market Cap is an important way to judge the relative staying power of a precious metals fund.
Larger funds:
•   Pass savings to investors by placing bulk orders
•   Can afford to place the metal in secure storage cost-effectively
•   Are by their very nature run by more experienced fund managers
•   Keyword: Professionalism

GOLD and TU.SILVER
GOLD by John Galt Asset Management owns two ounces of gold. It is the largest and most notable precious metals fund in the bitcoin community. TU.SILVER has half the market cap of GOLD and is the largest silver fund by almost 400%. It has only been in operation for two weeks.

Smaller funds:
While smaller funds cannot compete with larger funds in terms of price, they can often provide a level of friendliness and customer service that the major players cannot. For example, since LTC-SILVER is so small, SaltySpitoon has much more time to chat with customers and make them feel at home. So, being small can be seen as an advantage by some.
 
7-day Volume
1.   TU.SILVER (32.71 BTC)
TU Group

2.   GOLD (2.13 BTC)
John Galt

3.   BTC-GOLD & LTC-GOLD (0.11 BTC)
Carnth

4.   LTC-SILVER (0.07 BTC)
SaltySpitoon

Consideration of the average volume in a stock is extremely important factor when choosing a precious metals fund. If your investment is illiquid, you may not be able to get in and out of your position at a fair price. And God forbid you need to sell to raise funds in an emergency. If you are not in a liquid fund, you will regret the day you were born.
Highly Liquid funds:
•   Are always cheaper to buy
•   You can sell your shares quickly for a higher price because there’s more interest in the fund.
•   By definition there is a high social bonus to owning a liquid stock because you can talk about it with other investors.

TU.SILVER and GOLD
TU.SILVER is by far the volume leader. At over fifteen times the liquidity of GOLD, entering and exiting TU.SLIVER is extremely easy and you are very much more likely to get your money’s worth. Management has stated that they will fortify the bid upon demand, so if the standing market order for over 100 shares at and above spot price is not enough for you, additional volume will be added for you at your request. GOLD is also a relatively liquid fund, compared to the remaining funds.
Illiquid funds:
Illiquid funds are dangerous to invest in because you may not be able to get a fair price when entering the fund and may not be able to get a fair price when entering the fund. Caution and patience must be exercised. The careful use of limit orders can prevent the great majority of mistakes with an illiquid fund – that is, if your orders ever execute. 




Spread
1.   TU.SILVER (0.9% to 4.9%)
TU Group

2.   GOLD (5% to 7.6%)
John Galt

3.   LTC-SILVER (16.7%)
SaltySpitoon

4.   BTC-GOLD (400%)
Carnth

The spread offered by a security is simply by what percetage is the ask higher than the bid. Spread is an important concern when determining how fairly an asset is priced. Securities with a low spread are fairly priced assuming an efficient market. On the other hand, investing in an issue with a high spread implies that at least one side (the buyer or the seller) is getting ripped off. Either one side is paying too much to buy, or one side is selling too cheaply.
Low Spreads mean:
•   You are getting your money’s worth whether you buy or sell.
•   The asset is fairly priced.
•   There is a high degree of interest in the issue.

TU.SILVER and GOLD
TU.SILVER is again the winner having a spread lower than GOLD’s while retaining a greater bid depth. This can be taken as hard evidence that investors in TU.SILVER can exit their position at a fair price any time they wish. Additionally, the tight spread implies investors are not paying any extra fees for their silver.
GOLD is also a winner here. GOLD’s contract states a spread of +/- 5%. The actual spread as seen here is around +/- 3.75%.  To put this in perspective, a “somewhat reasonable” spread in a coin shop could be considered +/- 6%. At 7% most experienced investors would walk out.
Approach funds with a high (10% or greater) spread with extreme caution. When approaching a fund with an unreasonable spread, always consider what would happen if you needed to sell, but couldn’t sell at a fair price. 



Depth
1.   GOLD (7.8 BTC + 16.8 BTC)
John Galt

2.   TU.SILVER (9.5 BTC + 9.7 BTC)
TU Group

3.   BTC-GOLD (2 BTC + 0.7 BTC)
Carnth

4.   LTC-SILVER (0.0035 BTC + 0.01 BTC)
SaltySpitoon


Depth is an important consideration when you are seriously considering going long a stock. It’s related to the spread. Consider the above information carefully. If you wanted to invest 10 BTC, where could you put it? Investing into BTC-GOLD or LTC-SLIVER would cause the price to skyrocket. To make a long story short, you can’t move into a low-depth issue at a fair price. The sell side story is the same. What is the depth of the bid? If you need to sell and want a fair price, can the market handle your order? If you try to sell more than one share against LTC-SILVER, the price will collapse by over 70% to 0.01 BTC. This is not what you want to see in an investment.
Depth implies:
•   The stock can handle your investment…
•   …at a fair price

GOLD and TU.SILVER
While TU.SILVER offers a greater depth of bid than GOLD, it is GOLD which wins first place here. Clearly, an investor of size will be looking to buy GOLD if he is in a hurry. Simply put, if you had 15 BTC to invest right now, and could only choose one fund, then only GOLD can accommodate your purchase at a fair price.
Both securities offer peace of mind to investors by maintaining a very high bid depth; this implies investors can exit their position at a fair price any time they want.

Finally, don't hesitate to contact Carnth about liquidity issues in BTC-GOLD. He has stated he is on standby to provide liquidity as required. Just send him a message letting him know you'd like to place an order and he will step in and fill it (for more information please see: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1458702 reasonable to assume SaltySpitoon will do the same. These are friendly people, don't hesitate to enjoy their fantastic customer service.



Proof of Ownership
1.   TU.SILVER (Photos, Receipts, Independent Auditing)
TU Group

2.   GOLD (Photos, Serial Numbers)
John Galt

3.   LTC-SILVER (Photos)
SaltySpitoon

3.   BTC-GOLD (Limited Photos)
Carnth

“Do you have any proof?” is a very fair and common question in today’s world of banks charging customers for storage of non-existent gold, paper contracts trading at 100 to 1 leverage, 90% (sterling and coin melt) being used to replace good delivery bars, and a flurry of recent reports regarding tungsten-filled bars.
An investor should never feel bad about asking for proof, and a proper fund manager must provide that proof on short or no notice. Failure to do this is a very serious red flag.
To their credit, all funds have taken the initiative by posting photos of their holdings online. However, only TU.SILVER’s receipts and serial numbers are regularly reviewed by an arm’s length (independent) auditor. TU.SILVER doesn’t just prove they have the metal, they prove they have the metal and that they haven’t dumped it since taking the pictures.

Proof of ownership implies:
•   Peace of mind.

GOLD: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B23m7aRNI-JbT0xhcEZFWFdQZVE
GOLD: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B23m7aRNI-JbcC1RRXZhaEFvLUE/edit
TU.SILVER: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TU.SILVER#pane_profile
(click “profile” then choose “images”)
BTC-GOLD: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1400254
LTC-SILVER: http://i.imgur.com/l6iOO.jpg
 


CONCLUSION
The clear winners here are TU.SILVER and GOLD. As these funds operate in different sectors (silver and gold respectively) it does not make sense to recommend one over the other. Investors will make that decision based on which metal they choose to invest in.

Secondly, don’t blindly throw money at the big two. Just because other funds do not score highly on this comparison does not mean they are bad investments. You just have to be careful and place limit orders when entering and exiting a position.

When investing in a small fund, send a comment to the fund operator and talk to him about the fund first. They will be happy to help you. Both Carnth and SaltySpitoon are very approachable. If you contact them with a concern about the spread or order depth they are very much more likely to be in a position to help you than a larger “Corporate Behemoth” fund like GOLD ;-)

In conclusion, there are many precious metals vehicles to choose from, but the safest and easiest is probably just buying the physical metal yourself. Gold and silver have alloidial title; it’s owned by whoever is holding it in their hand. Keep this in mind when investing in any silver fund; if they cannot secure the value of your silver as you yourself can by holding it in your hand, then perhaps the risk is greater than the reward. Please consult a registered investment advisor before investing.

TU.SILVER on BitFunder
-----

We had our first confirmed redemption today! Quote from a customer:


Total time from request to delivery was six days (Asia-->Europe). Most of that time was messing about on airplanes, so I suspect US. delivery times would be about the same.

Current spot price for TU.SILVER is less than 2btc/oz for 1/2oz coins! This insane deal will last as long as I have supplies to fill orders, so bid now before they're all gone!

Edit: 1 hour later, yet another customer has received their rounds. Good!

-----
TU.SILVER on BitFunder

Price Alert: New all time now! We are now selling silver for just 1.869 BTC/oz. See BitFunder for details!


I am pleased to announce our very first "Sell your Signature" campaign. If you'd like to sell your signature on bitcointalk, you can get up to 10 bitcoins. Please see:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sell-your-signature-140454

Happy stacking!

TU.SILVER represents the cheapest silver you can buy in Bitcoins -- anywhere!

With competitors offering prices at 2.1 BTC/oz and up, TU.SILVER's .1975 ask price per 1/10oz is simply unbeatable!

Our current spread is 1.911 bid and 1.975 ask. Redeemable upon demand as 1/2 oz rounds.

Have you seen the coin premium on 1/2oz rounds recently? Wow, why are we selling this silver so low? It's CRAZY! I must be CRAZY!

We are the only listing on BitFunder who has hired an accountant to do our books and make sure everything is transparent and aboveboard.

If you haven't heard the silver story let me help you out with that:

The Silver Bullet and the Silver Shield: The Greatest Truth Never Told

Check it out, it might just change your life!

Both your examples about names refer to "later" actions.

I agree someone giving a name potentially lets them slip up later if a scammer (or just a compulsive liar) but that still doesn't explain how the act of them giving the name in the first place adds any security.

There's really only a few things I look for when determining the likelihood of something being legitimate (there's a whole raft of things that make it likely to be a scam):

1.  Is there strong evidence that they actually do what they claim to be doing and will be using funds raised for that purpose.
2.  Is it obvious how they personally make a profit from running their business.

If someone is definitely running their business AND making profit for themselves for it then a lot of the incentive to scam vanishes.  If they aren't obviously making a profit themselves then there's risk of either them giving up on it due to lack of incentive or that they're making the profit by skimming of funds or intent on blatant theft.  Obviously being legitimate (i.e. not a scam) doesn't make something a good investment -

Knowing their real identity IS useful as a security measure (to what extent depends on the individual) - but knowing their identity is an entirely different thing to simply taking their word for it.  If you'll take their word for what their identity is then you may as well go the whole mile and just take their word that they're honest and skip the whole identity thing entirely as you've already convinced yourself to take their word for stuff without any supporting evidence.

As for whether I invest in things owned by a guy named Joe (should really be "owned by a guy who claims to be named Joe") or in things with bidwalls the answer on both counts is no (if you're talking about my fund) we do very little investing - just trading.

But I'll happily trade things of either type - and even things I suspect (or on occasion am certain) are scams.  I don't massively care whether things I trade are genuine or scams, profitable or certain to make a loss - just whether I'm confident I can sell them to someone else for more than I paid for them (though my belief in the legitimacy/profitability of the asset DOES have an effect on the price at which I'm willing to buy).

On balance I'd prefer trading the shares issued by the guy who claimed his name was Joe - as ones with bid-walls are a pain for trading as you don't get to pick them up cheap much.  But if I were investing I'd go for the one with bid-walls - as I can determine whether they're real or not, they give liquidity and they also demonstrate the existence of SOME assets on the exchange.  But that would be a fair way down my list of things leading me to invest.

In the words of Wayne Gretzky, you have to skate to where the puck is going, not to where it's been. For now, the volatility you would normally price into these assets has been canceled out. How I've done this is a trade secret, and involves a special technical analysis indicator I've invented which I call the triangle trending chart.

So accounting has to be done in bitcoins because bitcoins are the unit of account on the exchange. But we're not really dealing with bitcoins, we're dealing with silver denominated in bitcoins. Both of which can be denominated in a third currency. Both bitcoins and silver are hard assets in that they cannot be created by fiat. So they both follow the laws of supply and demand. That means that priced against each other they will create a much more stable figure. The third factor is currency. The triangle trending indicator links three independent figures together -- like points on a triangle. The center of this triangle is the relation between each figure. This center moves towards one or the other figures more or less quickly (with more or less force) over a certain time period. This tells me what the market is looking at, and reveals to me much information.

Right now I have been watching the trend using my special trending triangle indicator and the market action looks like a straight line. This is telling me where the market is going to be. That's how I price my silver. Like Wayne Gretzky, my hero.

I've had balance sheets in mind this whole time as well.  I'm saying that USD is a much better way of showing "a snapshot of the realisable[sic][] value of a unit" because Bitcoin's extreme volatility makes it completely unsuited for use as a unit for accounting.

edit: and because it's silly to have a balance sheet that becomes more painful to use after a week of currency fluctuations.  Sure, it's weird to have unrealized gains and losses from Mt. Gox show up on a random balance sheet but Bitcoin just isn't stable enough right now.

Actually this is an interesting point you're making. How do you write 月野うさぎ in English? The problem is, people who don't speak Japanese can't pronounce Japanese. Romaji is only useful to people who are learning Japanese. A classic example is "Doraemon". In English, you want to say "Do-ray-mon" (3 syllables). But in Japanese it is "Do-ra-e-mo-n" (5 syllables). This is why as a general rule Japanese names are rewritten. It's for your convenience.

To take a very silly example: you claim your name is John Smith and later you sign things as "Serena". Well....

There's that bit of Clemens', "the less one is apt to make definitive statements the less likely he is to look foolish in retrospect". It applies here: any definitive statement, such as "my name is Joe", is an opportunity to be later on proven the liar.

Bid walls do provide momentary liquidity, no argument. But I don't see how investing into something because it currently has a wall is different from investing into something because it's owned by a guy named Joe (not that I'm claiming you're doing either).

Adding bid-walls doesn't add security (in the sense of establishing trustworthiness) and I've not claimed that it does.

But it 100% DOES add liquidity - that's the advantage I was referring to it offering to short-term investors: some other metals funds there's no way to sell out at anywhere near purchase price.

Not sure how a claim to a name can be verified.  In the example of the security we're talking about, the name claimed is a fairly common one.  Without an address to go with it I don't see any way that can be verified.  Someone giving a name, address and land-line telephone number (not pay-as-you-go mobile or skype) is different - as then it can be verified.

But if I say "My name is John Smith" (it's not) please explain how you'd verify that or what security it gives you?

You're welcome, and you can feel free to redeem whenever you want I'm still looking at how we are shipping and the costs, but for now shipping is 1 share per 5oz, or about 2%. That is, I believe, the cheapest shipping option of any precious metals fund right now. You can also pay shipping in bitcoins if you want. For example someone just redeemed 1oz and I quoted him 0.1BTC (the actual price was .146). So 1 share per 5oz (i.e. 2%) works out okay for me.

This is actually a cheap way to buy silver, since our price is a little less than most online coin shops. I have no idea how I managed that especially since all we buy are 1/2oz rounds. But there it is. The competition just stepped up a notch.

Actually about that, once we get a little bigger I can start buying poured bars and industrial silver ingots (cut from long bars and such) and it's super cheap. Nearly spot. But you won't be getting nice 1/2oz rounds like that, just chunks of silver or maybe silver shot. I'd probably run a motion to see how much of that people want us to buy, but it could lower the price of shares by 5% to 10%. Nice huh. Well, let's see how big the fund gets first. I just locked in a price for 25oz (fifty 1/2oz rounds). They'll probably be here on friday

Just want to say thanks for the initial IPO shares - you're not losing money if I redeem them for silver right?

Note: spot price + coin premium for silver in BTC is currently 1.860/BTC/oz, so this bid wall represents a cash premium of between 3.4% and 7.3% for anyone who is selling shares. Of course, investors are still welcome to redeem shares for metal. In fact, I just mailed 1oz to a shareholder this afternoon.

Aren't you guilty of the same thing as your pet peeve?

Stating a name adds no security, because anyone could state a name, honest or dishonest. Paying dividends a few months adds no security, because anyone could pay dividends, honest or dishonest.

Yet putting bid/ask walls up adds security. Why? Anyone could do it, whether honest or dishonest. The fact that they're here now doesn't mean they'll be there when you actually need them.

To be sure, my argument isn't that someone putting bid walls up is therefore equal to someone not putting them. My argument is that your pet peeve is nonsense: someone making a claim to an identity is above someone not making such a claim for the obvious reason that a claim made can be verified or falsified. A claim not made can't be anything.

Obviously no single signal can quickly and fully resolve the thorny issue of BTC credibility, but certainly any signal whatever may in principle be useful towards such an evaluation. Right?