Topic: [BitFunder] WTF! BitFunder Restrictions to US Citizens - page 4. (Read 12167 times)

Let's assume that *all* of Bitstamp deposits are Euro:



I'm afraid my statement holds true
*But, of course, Bitstamp's volume is not all Euro.  The Euros converted to US Dollars?  Those are dollars too

Here is the terms and conditions text from Ukyo's site:



Terse.  Concise.  Easy to understand.

No promises of explanations, commitment or Dear John letters.

You knew what this was.

This is a pertinent question. Where is the cease and desist? This shutdown was prompted by something, so where is the correspondence? Why are people content for Ukyo to not give any details about this

I'll address you grievance.
The exchange operators understood the shifting legal landscape, and explicitly stated that understanding in the site's user agreements/FAQs.  I'll quote burnside:

No assets on the site are to be considered real.
Nothing is verified. (Do your research!)
The use of this site is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
If an asset issuer on this site defaults, you have ZERO RECOURSE. (not like you have any recourse in most international BTC situations anyway.)

While the aforementioned would be laughed out of every Podunk courthouse, you must agree that it leaves little to interpretation.
If you feel that the wording is ambiguous, please offer a more direct alternative -- i'm at a loss.

If i didn't sufficiently stress that the legal landscape was, and continues to be, in flux, i'll repeat it.  The Pirateat40 case & other developments made it clear that these "virtual" antics had IRL consequences.  As i've mentioned before, the exchange operators attempted to telegraph their intent, going as far as announcing the possibility of restrictions on US citizens, but were shouted down.  Those willing to listen listened.

The exchanges were taking risks, you have opted to bet on the FAQs & user agreements being simply words to fool the regulators.
The regulators weren't fooled.  You were.

Of course I knew the risks.  And I mitigated them to a large extent by not exposing myself too much to the "securities" sector as a whole. 

OTOH, just saying "inversely" and not addressing the actual argument I put forward isn't an answer.

The exchange operators can't have it both ways, if they didn't understand the risks of running an exchange, and that in doing so they were putting themselves at risk and only woke up to this fact because they've only recently hired lawyers, I'd say that they are downright incompetent and shouldn't be trusted by the community should they try to do something going forward.

If they knew the risk and just got cold feet 6 months into the venture, then I'd say that speaks volumes as to their ethics.  If you were aware of the risks going in, then why did you even start it in the first place if you were going to run away at the first hint of trouble? 

Either way, neither has handled these things as they should have, both while operating and in shutdown mode.  I'm not saying it is easy, I'm just saying that they signed up for the task, and there is an implied type of responsibility there.  As you made clear, the risks were known, shutting down now is either an act of cowardice or incompetence.

It might be both, but it can't be neither. 

Inversely, you also knew the risks going in.
You knew that you were investing in illegal, unregistered stocks.  Or rather most here did.
If you did not, it wasn't for lack of warnings from fudsters, trolls & other sane adults.

Oh man, havelock should be next.

I have to say that the way that both Bitfunder and BTCT have handled things is absolutely atrocious.

If they are pretending that the conditions that are forcing them to shutter their doors didn't exist when they set up their exchanges, they are either liars, unethical or incompetent.

Each of them has created large quantifiable financial losses for people who had relied on their assertions and now they want to shove that responsibility off onto another entity.  I'd love to see even a redacted version of the Cease and Desist letter either of these exchanges received.  Because, I don't believe one exists.  They've scared themselves out of doing something that they should have known was scary to do in the first place.

Acting like all the rules around issuing securities just happened is a joke.  They were in place for literally decades and closing in on a century before these exchanges were ever conceived.

They knew the risks of running one of these things, if they weren't up to it they should have never started. 

Let's stifle our emotions for a sec & figure out what we're talking about.
Most of the bitcoin economy revolves around the dollar.  Like so:



Are you saying you wish for The US Dollar to vanish from the bitcoin scene?  If so, the US Government is your friend.  Our government is working, albeit halfheartedly, to stem the influx of USD into the bitcoin economy.  The flourishing bitcoin scam scene is doing the best it can to hurry teh process along.

+1

Maybe you hit the right point

Great. Also it has being discussed in any particular stuff discussion thread that was holded at BitFunder.

The point is were just as mad about it as you are, well those of us that are aware. I'm not happy with what the US is doing any more than you are, but pointing fingers at people in the US and saying Haha I hope you get screwed even more its your fault is pretty childish and naive to say the least.

All of us need to band together. We should be upset mostly at this situation and trying to come together to find a solution so this stops happening to all the exchanges. Blaming governments and their people wont stop the panic selling

Actually no, most of the countries involved fought to simply maintain their land. Only a few powers were interested in taking over the world.

The function of any Government is to govern and do right by her people. Obviously no Government in the world actually stands up to this ideal, but some are better than others. I suggest the USA works against its own people every single time making it one of the worst offenders, along with China and Saudi Arabia.

Don't the world wars show us that the government should not aim for that?

Actually that is the function of any government. What do you think the world wars were about?

The SEC isn't the problem. The SEC is in the process of making crowdfunding legal. All this does is clear the way for another group of US companies to set up a regulated exchange.

SecondMarket or Sterlingfunder for example. The best thing to do is pull your coins out of all these exchanges and wait it out. The SEC has nothing to do with people panic selling or with exchanges shutting down and votes have nothing to do with the inaction of the SEC to publish their rules for crowdfunding.

Agreed, the sooner the better.

The USD is about to crash hard along with the US economy.

This is what happens to all ponzi schemes sooner or later...

There is no difference, give your government the power to control the world reserve currency, lets see how long it takes before they are the bully on the block.

Well there's the official BitFunder thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitfunder-asset-exchange-marketplace-rewritable-options-trading-130117

Then there's the discussion about the exclusion of US citizens: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/if-you-are-a-us-citizen-you-basically-can-go-f-yourself-btct-bitfunder-dwolla-308012 (I guess that's what you're looking for)

Then there's the discussion about Ukyo.Loan regarding the current situation: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ukyo-can-us-members-collect-divs-or-transfer-assets-after-111-308053

And finally if this problem could also hit havelock: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/can-us-citizens-expect-the-same-fate-on-havelock-308018