Topic: [BITLC] Change of payment scheme for Bitlc.net (Previously bitcoins.lc) - page 2. (Read 5672 times)

I know you are joking, but some people in this thread may not understand the humor, so I corrected it.

Only if intermittent miners are intermittently mining late round.  If they intermittently mine early, they are golden   Ha

it was a joke. You said "AFAIK".. As Far As I Know. Thats why I said you didnt know "far enough"


They are only "the same" (as in, same average reward)  if no one hops the prop pool.
Since bitlc is being hopped extensively, both 24/7 and intermittent miners are losing 20% compared to hop proof payout schemes.

just did a Google and forum search for "far enough" with or without PPLNS and did find anything, you are coining this "far enough".  BTW, mining prop the same way will do the same thing? Mining 24/7 on PPLNS is better than prop, but that is not what I said.  Occasional mining on PPLNS and Prop are the same so bitlc should stay the same unless it want to be a much smaller  inflexible pool than it is now. 

You dont know "far enough" then, because it doesnt. There is an equal chance of your shares ending up in a shift that doesnt get paid (because no block is found within the next 10 shifts) as ending up in a shift that gets paid multiple times (because several blocks are found within the next 10 shifts).

Perhaps looking at these graphs helps:
https://bitminter.com/stats/rewards

The top chart show shifts and their payouts. If you mine intermittently, you shares could end up in any of those shifts randomly, some are paid zero PPS, some are paid 1x PPS (yellow line), some are paid multiple times. On average, assuming average pool luck, you will end up on the yellow line and obtain 100% PPS payout.

Of course you will have a higher variability than with PPS, and probably a higher variability than a non stop miner, but on average you will make exactly the same per share as a 24/7 miner and exactly the same as with any other hop proof payout scheme.

Not true, AFAIK, PPLNS will penalize occasional miners.  DGM, PPS or SMPPS are better choices for hoping / occasional  mining. 

PPLNS is preferred for full time mining on one pool...good to maintain pool loyalty but not very flexible.

 

In a proportional pool, hoppers will get, say 120% PPS and non hoppers 80% PPS (assuming equal average hash rate between hoppers and non hoppers)
In a hop-proof pool, everyone will get  100% PPS, there is no difference between hoppers and non hoppers.
Duh.

if you are right, that kind of "hopping" rips off regular miners...but wait... hop proof schemes protect regular miners...unless they are screwing them to pay that "substantially more" to someone else...unless you are clueless

Well said..

Been mining 24/7 for months >> never hopped >> tired of being called a sucker >> casted my vote >> switching to a PPLNS pool >> I'll check back with the site next month.

Best!

That was never the consensus.  It isn't a wash.  There is a mathematical advantage to hopping.

Hoppers earn > full PPS value
Since mining is zero sum that means everyone else earns < full PPS value.

Hopping a prop pool and robbing the suckers may be unethical but at least it is smart.  Mining a prop pool and NOT hopping is basically say I prefer to have 20% of my revenue stolen from me everyday.  I could have 100% but I would rather have 80% instead.


Game theory.  There are three options you must choose one
a) Earn 1.2x per day but it requires a little more work and you must live with the fact you are stealing from others
b) Earn 1.0x per day.
c) Earn 0.8x per day.

Which options seems the best?  Which options seems the worst?


If the pool is hop-proof that is correct however proportional pools aren't hop-proof.

Nice comparison - thanks!!

I already made a spreadsheet to calculate that for bitclockers, so I pasted data for this pool in to it and tried to make it work with the not so easy time formatting of the site..  I might have made a mistake somewhere, but it looks correct and the result (if correct) is quite sobering.

Assuming hoppers jumped at 40% CDF, this is the result for the last 98 blocks:


Expected is what youd get on a hop proof pool, or PPS.
Hopper is what the hoppers took.
Nonstop is what you got on this pool if you mined 24/7 and didnt hop.

You can check my spreadsheet and play with the number by grabbing the spreadsheet here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qbqrcu4iyycacrx

Jine,

Do you have the statistics available (and the time of course) to generate some comparisons of payout methods using real historical data from the pool?  Per user would be great (I'd like to see if I would have made more or less with my miners since joining the pool) but a lot of work I'm sure.  Even some "this is a typical full-time miner of X mh/s, this is a typical part-time non-hopper user, and this is a typical hopper" over the last 365 days would be very helpful.  If you could also show what payouts would have been without the hoppers in the pool for everyone else that would be even better.  My suspicion is without factoring out the hoppers being in the pool, merely adjusting their payouts to the tested method along with everyone else, the amount of payout I'd have received would be roughly the same.  If you can in fact "remove" them from the pool for the statistics, I'd be curious to see if they really do hit regular users for up to 20% as is being claimed, or if the reduction in found blocks due to loss of hash power will offset some or all of that loss.

At the end of the day, I don't care if I make (obviously exaggerated) 20% of 50 BTC found or 10% of 100 BTC found in the same period of time, the payout to me is the same, 10 BTC, for the same amount of work I contributed.  I don't care about hoppers unless they're reducing that number either by taking an unfair portion, or if they're causing undue delay or downtime on the pool.  It sounds like that is happening, but as they say, "the proof is in the pudding."

Thanks Jim!

Jeremy

Precisely. I think some people misunderstand "hopping". Mining at random intervals, or only during day or whatever, is not hopping and "hop proof" payout schemes do not penalize this behavior. Quite on the contrary, even if you mine at random times, you would be gaining substantially more with PPLNS or DGM compared to proportional.

This is a misconception. PPLNS does not require full-time mining, nor does it punish part-time miners (nor unfairly reward part-time pool hoppers). If you submit a share now, it will pay you a reward of (50/N) BTC for any block that is found during the next N shares on the pool. You can keep on mining or you can quit, it doesn't affect what that submitted work will earn you. If your hashrate's expected reward for 24 hours of mining is 2BTC, your expected reward for 12 hours of mining would be 1BTC, regardless of when or how you part-time mine.

PPLNS does have a lottery-like aspect similar to solo mining, but it is significantly more favorable because you are part of the pool's high hashrate, and your work continues to count even after you quit. If solo mining with an expected 2BTC/day hashrate, you might earn 0 BTC in a month of mining, or you might find three lucky blocks worth 150BTC. If you mine on a PPLNS pool for an hour, you might get 0 reward if the pool is unlucky, or you might share several block finds, and earn significantly more than expected for your work. Proportional has the same situation, miners suffer lower earnings if the pool is unlucky. However even the modest part-time miner will quickly see they are getting their expected earnings over time with PPLNS.

Proportional also has the "OMFG, when are we going to solve this ridiculous long block? I'm gonna quit" factor. PPLNS is much more optimistic, you start submitting work and wait for the block finds to roll in, you aren't overly invested in unlucky blocks, and nobody is punished for starting mining in the middle of a round.

I mine when computer in my bedroom is turned on. I'm not interested in mining at a pool that forces me to mine 24/7.
Therefore I'm not enthusiastic over PPLNS. Maybe DGM would be better, but it's obscure and offers small rewards at the beginning.
Yes, poolhoppers are parasitic, and they wouldn't visit a pool without the base of honest miners.
But they massively contribute to finding blocks also , and finding many blocks attracts honest miners.
There is a rule in business: "IF IT WORKS, DON'T MESS WITH IT".

Angry neighborhood bastard mod here. Cut that out.

@Jine: What N would you choose for PPLNS? Also, could you please enable changing one's vote for this poll?




p2pool uses PPLNS...