Topic: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion - page 2. (Read 18505 times)

I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.

All I see in this thread are CoinHoarder giving level-headed, unbiased arguments and krach flopping around trolling BTSX and attacking CoinHoarder for being a BTSX delegate, as if there's something wrong with that.

Krach's opinion of BTSX obviously won't change, so there's no point in flopping along with him.

In your "diversify into" example.  With what am I buying bitFIAT?  Is this new investment?  Do I still own the BitsharesX that I am expecting to decline in value?  If I do not still own the BTSX, who does?  Why does my selling them not cause downward pressure?

I am not yet finding any difference between "diversify into" and "actually sell" other than "diversify into" includes also purchasing bitFIAT which from the sounds of this "backing" system may create wash sale tax loss implications for me, increasing my risk and limiting my gains due to the way that taxes work.
http://www.sec.gov/answers/wash.htm

Hi,
Im not trolling. Trolling would be making pictures like at the start of this thread, or calling people names, or attacking the messenger and not the message. Dismissing disucsssion as trolling is another way to destract people away from the content and instead attack the messenger. Simply pointing out that you can not do everything with a derivitive that you can do with the asset that it represents is by no means trolling.

The problem with the quote is that it wishes to devorce the marketing done by BTSX and trys to put it forward that the "technically objective" will "find" btsx. However the marketing is going to lure people, for the most part, and it is, like most marketing, full of marketing talk and big claims and does nothing to attract people that are technicaly objective, you mean to tell me markeing is objective? I hope not. It is even very very possible that people are technical objective and they just do not agree with a lot of what is going on at btsx. The quote assumes that if you are objective then you must be with btsx, all others are not, typical tribalistic mumbo jumbo.

The second issue with the quote is that a "crypto tribe" is exactly what bitsharesX is, so people should move from one tribe to another, that is real innovation! It is so bad that people have to write things like "Im not being tribalist but..." before explaining things as well as calling themselves "crypto masters" not to mention the highly tribalistic us vs. them thread "bitsharesX is bringing bitcoin and litecoin down". This is the essence of this crypto tibalism that the blog is talking about.

yes that is how the btsx tribe views it, must be objective since there is zero vested interest in the demise of bitcoin, overtly, covertly and underlying.


Again I ask ,

Maybe there is a fine and transparent answer to this, just havent found one so far.

Nice trolling miner krach but lets see for how long you can swim...


quote source and nice reading http://bitshares.org/stans-thoughts-on-dpos-and-bitcoin/

No it is not silly, just come out and say that you are a delegate from the get go, it is silly to let people know that you are a delegate?
A bitcoin user is the same as being a delegate? No, that is silly.

Again being a delegate is different than being a simply "holder" of a currency.


No, I am simply pointing out common misconceptions about bitsharesX, there is no need for Ft. Knox because nothing would be in there anyway except bitsharesX.
Pointing out big markeing statements and that saying "hold bitcoin in bitsharesX" has nothing to do with a bitcoin private key is FUD I guess. Make sure to include the word "nazi" in your campaign it is  great way to attack people that do not agree with you, bonus points for you!


I dont, primarly I find the marketing misleading and not one person can explain how the VC company that funded the project makes any money, delegate please explain that,why is this contract not embeded in the bitsharesX blockchian or anything similar?

BotsharesX is a fun project, your own M1A1, a bitcoin killer, trade potato chipsX, or even bitDIRT! Real world derivatives!

-
You do not have a private key and you are not/ can not run a full node of the coin in question. A very big difference. Having a copy of the blockchain of said coin is fundimental. bitBTC or bit(insert GOLD LITECOIN or anything else) are derivatives, it is like saying gold bullion and gold derivatives are the same, no difference. I disagree.


Yes, this is exactly what I stated.
Guess what? When you want to cash them out to get USD then you have counterparty risk, as with any other coin.
So in the end your bitGold can only be cashed out for BTSX then you figure out what to do with the BTSX, to get gold you would need to sell btsx at an exchnage for USD and then buy gold with USD somewhere. These are derivatives that promote holding by paying dividends, in .... BTSX.


I disagree again, I can not look up anything in the bitcoin blockchain in my client with bitBTC, I have not tried maybe you can tell us if you can.


I agree, however you still have this risk when exiting the BTSX system for the "real world" asset that the derivatives represent if you choose to do so. The reply "why would you want to" which is another question all together.

The risk is that the whole system colapses due to a crash, manipulation/collusion of delegates. Of course both are quote "unlikely" at this stage in general they are both totaly dismissed.  


Yep, the bubble continues to fly as long as no helium exits.
BTSX is marketed as the most stable thing ever, it is misleading.




Hi,
Im not promoting any coin, you are. Therefore there is not the same standard that you imply. I would hope it would be common sense that a delgate should be held to a different standard when out promoting the project- coin 2.0 thingie or whatever you want to call it. When I do post or talk about trading I always tell people to do thier own due dilligance ,as a minimum. Your position as a delegate is similar to being in a higher level of a company, it would be great if you had just come out with that while speaking about BTSX that is simply more transparent. Attacking the messenger is an interesting tactic but doest zero to move the discussion along, it in fact distracts from the main topic. Even if I did not inform people of risk when doing anything remotely like give advice on a coin , would that affect or apply to what you are doing? No.



Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.


No risk , totaly stable, just ask risky as holding USD
-
Another issue is that bitsharesX community members see themselves as , and I quote: "Crypto Masters"

You see I like the tech behind bitshares, but this kind of attitude I dont like.

So delegate, please tell us how does
BitFund.PE
make money with this whole thing?
Is the contract somewhere embeded in the bitshares blockchain ,if not, why not?


Call derivatives, derivatives
crypto derivatives

if people want to trade derivatives, then it is a good platform.

However if you want the real coin or other asset (bitPotatoschips ect)
then it is not suitable.

Holding phyiscal assets (metals, land ect) has merit and is true diverisvication, since there is zero exposure to crypto.

Trading derivatives also has merit but should not be sold as a subsuite for holding a bitcoin private key or any other asset, you can not do the same things with a derivative as with the real asset.

I dont hate bitsharesX , im not following you, you just happen to pop up in the forum in 2 main sections. I would have never replied if you had not said that you can hold bitcoin in bitsharesX which to me is very misleading.

Let's say you think a cryptocoin is at the top of a mini bubble and will likely go down in value in the short term.

With most cryptocurrencies you would need to sell them on the market to reduce your exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Money exits the cryptocurrency's ecosystem for another cryptocurrency or FIAT. You could do so off of services or exchanges, but it is not convenient nor quick, and has counterparty risk involved.

With BitsharesX you can instead buy bitFIAT which are backed by BTSX, and thus there is no downward pressure put on the market and no money actually leaves the BTSX ecosystem. Yet, the end result is similar as you still reduce exposure to a downward price swing. There is no reason for the price to go down unless someone wants to exit the BitsharesX ecosystem all together.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".

This zealot gave really the first explanation of it I've seen, that quickly made sense.
A market driven distributed exchange pipeline of crypto to fiat and back.  Not bad.

At least it is backed by SOMETHING. 

(Alluding to FIAT and fractional reserve banking)

First of all you keep bringing up everywhere I am a Delegate as if it brings more credibility to your statements and less to mine and that is silly. It is like saying that you are a Bitcoin user, so all of your opinions are worthless because you want them to go up in value. If everyone used such logic then everyone's statements here, no matter how honest or credible, would be worth nothing and it is a slippery slope. Why don't you inform us of your cryptocurrency holdings so we can know which statements of yours we can ignore using the same logic?

I never would of got into BitsharesX, or become a delegate for that matter, if I didn't really believe it will be successful for multiple reasons. It is literally the 2nd Alt coin I have supported in two years of being involved with the cryptocurrency community. It's not like I am out shilling for every coin that comes out, pump and dumps and all. You are basically saying if you use or invest in something you lose your ability to rationalize reality, however I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am here giving my honest and genuine opinions on different issues. BitsharesX is still rather new and it is basically the only alt coin I care about, so I have spent most of my time talking about it and helping others understand it. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is a free world and luckily Theymos is not a nazi.

It has also attracted it's fair share of haters... Cough... and most of the Bitshares community only hangs out on our forums, so I feel like it's my duty to stick up for it. That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD. You have been following me around for about a month now and ragging on BitsharesX at any chance you get, and I'm not sure what your issue is but you have pretty much attacked every aspect of it as if it is a complete scam, and then you act as if your opinion is more credible to mine by bringing up that I am a delegate. I guess this argument is just your reason to rag on BTSX today, so I will address your issues, but I don't understand why you hate BitsharesX so much. Example: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/botsharesx-smart-asset-on-the-dogeparty-network-763383


I fail to see the difference if you are keeping your cryptocoins and commodities as investments for long periods of time, or are day trading them. If you wanted to, you could cash them out to BTSX at any time and convert them into anything you like.

As to cryptocoins if the infrastructure is developed properly, then there would be no reason to ever want to do that because you could do anything with Bitassets that you could do with Bitcoin if you wanted.

I just think there is more counterparty risk using centralized exchanges and services. Over the years how many of them have scammed customers, been "hacked", or defaulted? A lot of them..

Yes there are places where you can receive more leverage and reduce exposure, but all of them are centralized services and a decentralized autonomous company is not ever going to steal from you, get fake "hacked", or default assuming the market peg works as intended.


Of course there are risks, just like any other cryptocurrency, I thought there being some risk is implied. It is that I think there is less risk trading bitassets than trading on centralized services as to why I say things like this.

The price of BitsharesX could crash and Bitassets become under collateralized, but I look at this an an improbability. By crash I mean going down a lot and not your normal crypto bubble. The BTSX market cap is 62.5 million and there are currently only about $460,000 worth of Bitassets that exist today. Meaning it would need to crash by 93% to become under collateralized. Call me naive, but I think this is unlikely to happen.

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Hedging against bubbles while not putting any downward pressure on BTSX is one of its greatest features. Downward pressure really only needs to occur when you would like to exit the Bitshares ecosystem, as you have already mentioned.

Another reason why I think it is unlikely to lose 93% of its current value is because of the use of DPOS and the fact that there is no new money being printed like there is in most other cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin included. Due to its deflationary properties and the very low cost of maintaining the security of the network through Delegates, no money has to come into the ecosystem for it to retain its value. In fact if no money goes in or out, the value would go up as transaction fees are destroyed. One BTSX has more buying power than it did when BTSX first came out as there are less of them, this is one of the only cryptocoins that can say it is truly deflationary.

To each their own, this is just your opinion as the quoted is my opinion. It seems you are more risk adverse and I am more risk prone. I would prefer to keep my metals and cryptos in Bitasset form as then it is more easily transferable, it gains interest, and it is easier to convert into other value via other Bitassets or exiting the Bitshares ecosystem all together.

That being said, diversification is implied with all of my statements as it is just smart investing. I am not trying to convince everyone to invest everything they have into BTSX, as that would be stupid and your right there are some risks just with anything else for that matter. Even that money in the bank backed by FDIC has risk, as if something extreme were to happen the government couldn't afford to bail us all out without extremely diluting the money supply by printing more money. I don't think anyone should invest more than they are comfortable losing in any asset, currency, or commodity and I apologize if I made it seem that way. I am assuming everyone already knows this as it is pretty much common sense.

Again, as it currently exists BitsharesX is better for day trading, diversifying, or hodling. It doesn't mean that the infrastructure won't develop around it in due time though. There is very little Ecommerce going on with cryptocurrencies anyways as it is mostly speculators. For people like this, BitsharesX is a great solution as it exists today. You can always keep your spending money in BTC or anything you'd like. And lastly, do not put more in BitsharesX you can afford to lose. Again, I thought this was common sense but apparently you want me to say it every time I talk about BTSX? Looking through your posts it doesn't seem as if you state other cryptocurrencies are risky with every post you make on them, so I am not sure why you are requesting I do something you don't even do yourself?

krach, you understand it correctly.

No, I get it, however if you cash out "BITGOLD" then it is backed by bitsharesX and not bitusd, or am I wrong?
And bitUSD is backed by ............. BitsharesX

You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member.

It's simply too early to tell if a supporting infrastructure will be built around BTSX such has been about BTC.  IF the pegs hold, software matures, the infrastructure could be built and support exactly what your looking for.  Only time will tell and we should be happy people are pushing the Bitcoin ideology to the next level.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.

If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not holding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Hi,
Well I asked a real simple question to clear a few things up, guess delegates have issues with that. First the delgate said

Well no you cant. You are not holding any bitcoin, litecoin, doge, botsharesX or any other cryptocoin. It may be the value of that coin in bitsharesX but it is not that coin, therefore you are not "holding" it. This language is misleading.
Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.


Thanks for your opinon. Since you are delegate I would asume that you think bitshare anything is better than anything and can emulate anything.

Another thanks for explaining that you can go short and long ect, there are plenty of places where you can already do that, no it is not in the bitshares system and yes there is counterparty risk. The main thing is that you never ever ever mention the word risk when speaking of bitsharesX and oh yes there is some, of course you will say it is less, as expected.

I strongly disagree, if you want to have metals, get physical metal. While you are at it if you want bitcoin then just get some bitcoin.
Yep


Again, there is no "holding" bitcoin, gold, silver ,litecoin ,doge or anything else, it is only "held up" by the same value of bitsharesX and there is zero possiblity of getting the "asset" after the bit, "bitGOLD"=no gold "bitBitcoin" =no bitcoin

Yes you can speculate with it, and the whole system could colapse as a house of cards, other systems can too, but if you make extraordinary claims "ft.knox""bitcoin killer" etal then expect extraordinary debunking.

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.

But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?