Block explorers oligopoly. - page 3.

HCP

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 26, 2021, 07:37:56 AM

...on the block explorers people can check huge amount of addresses and tx ID that are not theirs (at least that's what I do).

Yeah... I'm not terribly worried about the privacy aspect of using block explorers... simply because I've spent so much time in the tech support, beginners and the "wallet support" boards that if anyone was trying to associate bitcoin addresses to my IP, they would probably think that I "own" half of all the bitcoin addresses ever used!!?! Tongue

And to be honest, it's just out of sheer laziness... my node is txindex=1... so I could look them up relatively easily, I just prefer to use the block explorers because they have some "nice" features that usually make it "easy" (like linking to previous and/or next UTXOs/Transactions etc)

I should really just run one of the open source explorers and use that.

LoyceV

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 08:42:26 AM

~Vitalik Buterin~

Quote

~ your pool and a few others split off from the chain which still carries 79% of the network. According to your node, the majority chain's blocks are invalid. There's a balance error: the key block appeared to erroneously assign 4.5 million extra coins to an unknown address.
~
a significant part of the 4.5 million coins had been converted on-chain to other assets, and billions of dollars of defi transactions had taken place.

This sounds like a typical shitcoin problem, fueled by Defi-greed and central control from Vitalik and his buddies.

I don't worry about this in Bitcoin, because any serious organisation will run their own node, and their own node will reject the 4.5 million fake coins. It's the on-chain Defi that's the problem.

It would be nice if Bitcointalk would have it's own blockexplorer.bitcointalk.org

Quote from: gmaxwell on May 25, 2021, 09:28:30 AM

No one should be using blockexplorers: Using them trashes your privacy by leaking addresses you're interested to to third parties.

Your wallet should be providing all the monitoring of your own addresses that you need.

I often lookup addresses that aren't mine, and I usually use a blockexplorer for that, sometimes through Tor. My wallets can't really do that.

bitmover

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Quote from: dkbit98 on May 26, 2021, 07:05:32 AM

Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Certainly, but the wallet is not always accessible and I may need to know if the transaction happened now or not... For example, I may be doing something out of my house and I need to know if someone paid me or not, while my wallet is at home.

Don't you already have your own website bitcoindata.science for tracking and checking balance on addresses you want?

Yes, but my portal fetches data from another full node (sochain block explorer)

I do not have my own full node which sends data to my portal, that would basically be a block explorer.
I am still thinking about that possibility, although it looks like people do not exactly love block explorers

But I still think blockexplorers are needed. Most of the users do not run a full node, and there are very few block explorers around.

NeuroticFish

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Mempool.space source code is also available on Git if one wants to run his own nice explorer.

But I see one thing: in the same way Electrum servers can/may be logging and a lot of users still use them, a big amount of users will also run the explorers. And while for Electrum it's more likely to ask the server for your own addresses, on the block explorers people can check huge amount of addresses and tx ID that are not theirs (at least that's what I do).

I don't say it's good, but this is what happens. I guess that we need to learn to take better care of ourselves...

Quote from: dkbit98 on May 26, 2021, 07:05:32 AM

Don't you already have your own website bitcoindata.science for tracking and checking balance on addresses you want?

He can put a block explorer too and pinky swear he's not using the info for other purpose Cheesy

dkbit98

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Quote from: vjudeu on May 26, 2021, 06:06:01 AM

It is available from console, just there is no GUI for that. You can always click on your transaction, copy its ID, and then do "gettransaction " and later "decoderawtransaction " to see all inputs and outputs.

I know that, but I was talking about diagrams that look much more like bitcoin explorers as you can see in picture above.

Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Certainly, but the wallet is not always accessible and I may need to know if the transaction happened now or not... For example, I may be doing something out of my house and I need to know if someone paid me or not, while my wallet is at home.

Don't you already have your own website bitcoindata.science for tracking and checking balance on addresses you want?

vjudeu

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Quote

It would be interesting to see something similar in BitcoinCore or Electrum wallets.

It is available from console, just there is no GUI for that. You can always click on your transaction, copy its ID, and then do "gettransaction " and later "decoderawtransaction " to see all inputs and outputs.

dkbit98

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Almost everyone is using bitcoin explorers everyday and that can be a problem if majority is doing it and trusting them, not to mention the privacy issues, but there are several options to run your own explorers that are open source.
There is also one wallet called Sparrow that is open source and it has built in transaction editor that functions similar as a blockchain explorer, showing diagram with inputs and outputs for your transactions.
It would be interesting to see something similar in BitcoinCore or Electrum wallets.

https://www.sparrowwallet.com/

ABCbits

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Making a watch-only wallet in my phone would solve this... but am I not leaking addresses that I watch to my lightweight client just the same way i would leak to a block explorer?

Yes, unless the watch-only wallet uses BIP 157 compact block filter. I don't know if there are any mobile wallet support it, so the real option is host your own full node/server and force the watch-only wallet connect to your full node/server.

pooya87

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Quote from: HCP on May 25, 2021, 04:29:25 PM

Personally, I don't think the "elites" are as coordinated as well as Vitalik thinks they are... otherwise we wouldn't have ended up with BCH, BSV, BTG, BTCD and all the other forks and "competing" chains. Roll Eyes

You gotta look where Vitalik is coming from. He is not in bitcoin world and is probably not talking about bitcoin. He is talking about his own centralized altcoin called ethereum and when you read his contents you should read it with that altcoin in mind.
With that said the elites of ethereum network are well coordinated and can and could (in the past) change the consensus of their altcoin to the extent that they rolled back a large number of valid blocks just because the same "elite" had lost their money in the said smart contract and wanted it back. The result was the original immutable chain now called ETC and the forked mutable chain called ETH.
Obviously this can't happen in bitcoin because unlike ETH it is decentralizd.

HCP

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 08:42:26 AM

...

Quote

Can this happen on your blockchain? The elites of your blockchain community, including pools, block explorers and hosted nodes, are probably quite well-coordinated; quite likely they're all in the same telegram channels and wechat groups. If they really want to organize a sudden change to the protocol rules to further their own interests, then they probably can.

So, you basically need a 51% attack... and for all the block explorers and "hosted nodes" etc to be in on this...

In which case, the answer to the question, as far as Bitcoin is concerned, would be "No.".... not unless the so-called "blockchain elite" want to tank the price of Bitcoin and make it pretty much worthless, rendering their "elite" status null and void.

Personally, I don't think the "elites" are as coordinated as well as Vitalik thinks they are... otherwise we wouldn't have ended up with BCH, BSV, BTG, BTCD and all the other forks and "competing" chains. Roll Eyes

Quickseller

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 08:42:26 AM

Block explores links are often used as a proof of transfer. When I transfer BTC to someone I always share a block explorer transaction link.

Block explorers are often used by businesses to show evidence that a transaction has occurred to their customers, but they will generally not use blockexplorers to make business decisions themselves. The former is a means to provide customer service to their customers and the later involves the business taking action.

If major block explorers start displaying incorrect information, it would create negative customer experiences, and businesses may start using alternative services.

If miners start mining on a chain that arbitrarily change consensus rules, without warning, the rest of the ecosystem is not going accept the changed consensus rules pretty much under any circumstances and that chain will be worthless.

You also need to consider that just because there is a chain split, it doesn’t necessarily mean there are conflicting transactions. In most orphans, there are zero conflicting transactions. Obviously in the OP example, no one would accept an address receiving millions of bitcoin arbitrarily, and miners would quickly abandon the chain.

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Making a watch-only wallet in my phone would solve this... but am I not leaking addresses that I watch to my lightweight client just the same way i would leak to a block explorer?

Depends on the kind of wallet you're using. If it is Electrum, then it is as good as using a blockexplorer. If your wallet has privacy preserving features, downloading selected blocks, using bloom filter at the very least (effectiveness disputed) or when dandelion gets implemented, wallets using it.

A better way to remove possible links is to use Tor and use a different identity for each query. This way, it is far more difficult for the blockexplorer to get your actual IPs and to link addresses together.

Quote from: garlonicon on May 25, 2021, 09:22:42 AM

The smallest block explorer I can think of is you own full node. The main problem is that exploring for example UTXO database is not that easy as it should be. There are many features hidden under console and not implemented in graphical interface, but it is definitely possible to connect with your node via RPC and get all data you need. Reading binary files is another thing, but on running node it is a bit dangerous, but there is no other way if something is not yet implemented.
-snip-
Every full node can be turned into a new block explorer, even if it is in pruning mode, there is still a lot of useful information.

Pruned nodes are not as useful, you simply cannot query all of the transactions and having a UTXO set is arguably not very useful as well; you can't get any details out of that. You'll have to enable txindex before using some sort of blockexplorer on top of it.

Charles-Tim

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The best to do in this case is to make use of a wallet that run the full node, like the Bitcoin Core, also making use of it with Tor will improve privacy.

Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Making a watch-only wallet in my phone would solve this... but am I not leaking addresses that I watch to my lightweight client just the same way i would leak to a block explorer?

SPV servers can still be trusted than blockchain explorers. Explorers will have a way to generate income, selling of information like IP addresses can be one of them.

Many people can not run full node wallet, they have no option than to run SPV wallet, but people can still decide not to make use of blockchain explorer and be able to track transactions with txid on their wallets directly. Also making use of SPV wallet with Tor is advisable.

The question I have is that if blockchain explorer can be used with Tor or VPN, I think it should be safe to use it in this way? But yet, it can bring about centralization.

BlackHatCoiner

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Running a pruned node and a blockchain explorer can solve your issue and you won't need a VPS with high requirements. An even better solution for privacy would be to run it from your home. Although, that can work only if you want to look into certain addresses' balances. If you want to search any address, it'll have to be a full node.

Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2021, 09:52:14 AM

Making a watch-only wallet in my phone would solve this... but am I not leaking addresses that I watch to my lightweight client just the same way i would leak to a block explorer?

Let's say that the only difference is that with the block explorer you'll continuously leak your addresses. You're essentially sending and receiving information from one entity of people that can check the logs, whenever they want. If you're using Electrum, you can change that. You won't have to be known by blockstream.info:700 (for example). It's the way you look at it. One could say that this is worse, because you're leaking your addresses to many entities and not just one.

bitmover

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Quote from: gmaxwell on May 25, 2021, 09:28:30 AM

Your wallet should be providing all the monitoring of your own addresses that you need.

Certainly, but the wallet is not always accessible and I may need to know if the transaction happened now or not... For example, I may be doing something out of my house and I need to know if someone paid me or not, while my wallet is at home.

Making a watch-only wallet in my phone would solve this... but am I not leaking addresses that I watch to my lightweight client just the same way i would leak to a block explorer?

gmaxwell

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No one should be using blockexplorers: Using them trashes your privacy by leaking addresses you're interested to to third parties.

Your wallet should be providing all the monitoring of your own addresses that you need.

The blockstream block explorer is open source, so if you must use one-- you can run it yourself. ... if you can manage the resources. Blockexplorers are fundamentally less scalable than Bitcoin is, so they're pretty much always going to end up centralized in practice. This is another reason that its important to not use them.

garlonicon

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Quote

Are there small blockexplorers that you guys know or use?

The smallest block explorer I can think of is you own full node. The main problem is that exploring for example UTXO database is not that easy as it should be. There are many features hidden under console and not implemented in graphical interface, but it is definitely possible to connect with your node via RPC and get all data you need. Reading binary files is another thing, but on running node it is a bit dangerous, but there is no other way if something is not yet implemented.

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Do you think is there a room for a new block explorer?

Every full node can be turned into a new block explorer, even if it is in pruning mode, there is still a lot of useful information.

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Do you think it is important to have more block explorers?

Yes, it is very important, because if you use centralized block explorers, then all transactions you check are potentially linked at least to your IP, if not also unique browser fingerprint.

bitmover

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I was recently reading an interesting article from Vitalik Buterin (The Limits to Blockchain Scalability), where he mentioned how powerful the elites of the blockchain community can be.

The article basically focus on the importance of running a full node for the network decentralization. However, there is one role which I don't see much discussion: the block explorers.

Quote

It's crucial for blockchain decentralization for regular users to be able to run a node
At 2:35 AM, you receive an emergency call from your partner on the opposite side of the world who helps run your mining pool (or it could be a staking pool). Since about 14 minutes ago, your partner tells you, your pool and a few others split off from the chain which still carries 79% of the network. According to your node, the majority chain's blocks are invalid. There's a balance error: the key block appeared to erroneously assign 4.5 million extra coins to an unknown address.

...

By the morning, arguments on Twitter, and on the one community forum that was not censoring the discussion, discussions are everywhere. But by then a significant part of the 4.5 million coins had been converted on-chain to other assets, and billions of dollars of defi transactions had taken place. 79% of the consensus nodes, and all the major block explorers and endpoints for light wallets, were following this new chain. Perhaps the new dev fund will fund some development, or perhaps it will just all be embezzled by the leading pools and exchanges and their cronies. But regardless of how it turns out, the fund is for all intents and purposes a fait accompli, and regular users have no way to fight back.

Can this happen on your blockchain? The elites of your blockchain community, including pools, block explorers and hosted nodes, are probably quite well-coordinated; quite likely they're all in the same telegram channels and wechat groups. If they really want to organize a sudden change to the protocol rules to further their own interests, then they probably can.

I am part of the blockchain community for some years, and I visit only about 3-4 block explorers. I don't know many. Recently I discovered a new one, which is quite good a slightly different from the usual (mempool.space)

Block explores links are often used as a proof of transfer. When I transfer BTC to someone I always share a block explorer transaction link.

Block explorer really have a big power, and there are basically 2 or 3 which control most of the traffic. So a coordinate attack of block explorers and pools (as mentioned by Vitalik) could potentially happen and the full nodes would be a formidable defense (and basically the only one).

I am thinking about potentially good new projects. Are there small blockexplorers that you guys know or use? Do you think is there a room for a new block explorer? Do you think it is important to have more block explorers?

Topic: Block explorers oligopoly. - page 3. (Read 918 times)