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Topic: BlockStream or BitcoinXT? Those are your choices, gentlemen. (Read 6848 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
What is exactly a low value transaction? Your definition. Because some low value transactions have been uneconomic for a long time already.

I find this amusing for two reasons:

- The standard fee for plain everyday transactions you'd like to confirm quickly is 0.00005 BTC.  At current exchange rates, that's 1.1 cents.
- A basic 0-fee transaction will generally confirm within a few days, if you really can't afford that 1.1 cent fee.

There you go - two options that are by no definition 'uneconomic'. 
If we do not increase the blocksize and there is a significant increase in adoption then transacting on the main chain would become prohibitively expensive. At this point the only alternative which would provide sufficient scale is using third parties on top of Bitcoin. You could also just use another cryptocurrency instead of Bitcoin, which is what I would do in this situation. This article explains well the economics of not increasing the block size and what the consequences of this most likely would be:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/permanently-keeping-the-1mb-anti-spam-restriction-is-a-great-idea-946236
hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500
What is exactly a low value transaction? Your definition. Because some low value transactions have been uneconomic for a long time already.

I find this amusing for two reasons:

- The standard fee for plain everyday transactions you'd like to confirm quickly is 0.00005 BTC.  At current exchange rates, that's 1.1 cents.
- A basic 0-fee transaction will generally confirm within a few days, if you really can't afford that 1.1 cent fee.

There you go - two options that are by no definition 'uneconomic'. 
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500

 I have found good article,new altcoin created from XT fork,whatever it may hurt btc as well

http://www.finance-guy.net/finblog/bitcoin-forkin-war


Not this again. The first sentence is already wrong
Quote
On August 15th, Bitcoin XT was released, creating what is known as a 'fork' in the blockchain.   
Seriously, couldn't you find an article, that gets at least the first sentence right?
Pab
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1012

 I have found good article,new altcoin created from XT fork,whatever it may hurt btc as well

http://www.finance-guy.net/finblog/bitcoin-forkin-war

sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
I choose Bitcoin.












n00bs.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
As long as the blacklist crap is there I wont support it. Yes i know it an be bypassed, bla bla bla....
The reason that I am sceptic to it is that they had the nerve to put it in there in the first place.
it dosn't really matter if it was put in to protect against ddos or whatever. Blacklisting for whatever reason does not belong in the code
You are a stupid fucking idiot, talking about things he doesn't understand.
There is no blacklist. The End. There are really enough posts on this forum explaining that, but no, you rather listen to some random guy called turtlehurrican, who doesn't know shit about programming(but hey he can copy code from github, which is a pretty useless skill) and who just enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame and all the sheep running behind him.
hero member
Activity: 555
Merit: 507
As long as the blacklist crap is there I wont support it. Yes i know it an be bypassed, bla bla bla....
The reason that I am sceptic to it is that they had the nerve to put it in there in the first place.
it dosn't really matter if it was put in to protect against ddos or whatever. Blacklisting for whatever reason does not belong in the code
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
I have written this article, even though I do still need to respond to some of the things said on this thread, I will get to it, been busy, including writing this article and giving a speech on the subject. Will post it here, I was thinking that people here might appreciate what I have created. Smiley

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12267335

Respect for the well thought out posting. Just hope the Theymos censorship patrol show mercy on you.  Undecided
Pab
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1012
@BitProdigy Thank you very much for explanation,i didnt know how dangerous it is for Btc

Can somebody tell me do XT developers are aware that thay are creating btc killer
thay are technology advanced and propably very good devs,so i think thay are aware
Did somebody pay them for doing that

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I have written this article, even though I do still need to respond to some of the things said on this thread, I will get to it, been busy, including writing this article and giving a speech on the subject. Will post it here, I was thinking that people here might appreciate what I have created. Smiley

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12267335
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I would like to point out here that this has become a political problem, not a technical problem. We should try to look at this from a political and economics perspective. Part of the problem might be that some people are looking at this, as if it is an engineering problem when it is far more political in nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaaknMDbQGc

Its more a technical problem that has been made into a political one. Make of that what you will....

HOW ABOUT YOU PUT IT BACK UP WHERE IT CAME FROM? MR TECHNICAL EXPRETTT.
doesn't belong there anymore

techinal problem is solved ( up the limit ) the details as to how that solution should be implement is more political  than technical

you wish adam.. you wish.  Kiss
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
I would like to point out here that this has become a political problem, not a technical problem. We should try to look at this from a political and economics perspective. Part of the problem might be that some people are looking at this, as if it is an engineering problem when it is far more political in nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaaknMDbQGc

Its more a technical problem that has been made into a political one. Make of that what you will....

HOW ABOUT YOU PUT IT BACK UP WHERE IT CAME FROM? MR TECHNICAL EXPRETTT.

So much for having me on ignore, you retard.  Cheesy Lying is just second nature to you, isn't it?

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I would like to point out here that this has become a political problem, not a technical problem. We should try to look at this from a political and economics perspective. Part of the problem might be that some people are looking at this, as if it is an engineering problem when it is far more political in nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaaknMDbQGc

Its more a technical problem that has been made into a political one. Make of that what you will....

HOW ABOUT YOU PUT IT BACK UP WHERE IT CAME FROM? MR TECHNICAL EXPRETTT.
doesn't belong there anymore

techinal problem is solved ( up the limit ) the details as to how that solution should be implement is more political  than technical
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I would like to point out here that this has become a political problem, not a technical problem. We should try to look at this from a political and economics perspective. Part of the problem might be that some people are looking at this, as if it is an engineering problem when it is far more political in nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaaknMDbQGc

Its more a technical problem that has been made into a political one. Make of that what you will....

HOW ABOUT YOU PUT IT BACK UP WHERE IT CAME FROM? MR TECHNICAL EXPRETTT.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I would like to point out here that this has become a political problem, not a technical problem. We should try to look at this from a political and economics perspective. Part of the problem might be that some people are looking at this, as if it is an engineering problem when it is far more political in nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaaknMDbQGc
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
You ignoramus. Just answer the question.

By limiting the blocksize, they create an artificial upwards price pressure between high value users. This will eventually make the price of putting a low value transaction on the native bitcoin blockchain uneconomic. Low value users will be forced on to alternatives - conveniently implemented using sidechains. Yhe value proposition of value chains is their use for frequent, low value transactions, and fixing the block size at 1mb will ensure demand.

your point above is bullshit - if you move 80% of traffic off-chain,  you have enough room to bloat the chain as much as you like. You could put a 100kb spv proof script in there if you like, there will be nothing else in the block except a few sidechain consolidations.

What is exactly a low value transaction? Your definition. Because some low value transactions have been uneconomic for a long time already. The definition of low value is subjective and is constantly changing.

And what's more important - how Blockstream is supposed to monetize on sidechains if their motives are selfish?

You re right - it is entirely subjective. The user may feel that they get more economic value by putting it on a sidechain. But at least they will have the choice.

I'm sure they can figure out a way to monetize it when they roll out well developed  shrink wrapped sidechain implementations
newbie
Activity: 40
Merit: 0
"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."

Overly general quote, but it does sum up the reason why I currently support XT.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
You ignoramus. Just answer the question.

By limiting the blocksize, they create an artificial upwards price pressure between high value users. This will eventually make the price of putting a low value transaction on the native bitcoin blockchain uneconomic. Low value users will be forced on to alternatives - conveniently implemented using sidechains. Yhe value proposition of value chains is their use for frequent, low value transactions, and fixing the block size at 1mb will ensure demand.

your point above is bullshit - if you move 80% of traffic off-chain,  you have enough room to bloat the chain as much as you like. You could put a 100kb spv proof script in there if you like, there will be nothing else in the block except a few sidechain consolidations.

What is exactly a low value transaction? Your definition. Because some low value transactions have been uneconomic for a long time already. The definition of low value is subjective and is constantly changing.

And what's more important - how Blockstream is supposed to monetize on sidechains if their motives are selfish?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
Just going to copy/past this here until one of the trolls addresses it

I didn't bother reading this thread at all.

Let me just say:

Proofs used to reconcile between mainchain and sidechains compete with normal transactions for block space. Blockstream would be one of the main entity to benefit from bigger block size.

I say Blockstream benefits from smaller, not bigger blocks (which is why the blockstream guys don't want to raise the limit).

But, please... explain.  How will blockstream benefit from bigger blocks?



Can you read?

Proofs used to reconcile between mainchain and sidechains compete with normal transactions for block space.

What you "say" has no implication on reality no matter how distorted your view of the world is.

You ignoramus. Just answer the question.

By limiting the blocksize, they create an artificial upwards price pressure between high value users. This will eventually make the price of putting a low value transaction on the native bitcoin blockchain uneconomic. Low value users will be forced on to alternatives - conveniently implemented using sidechains. Yhe value proposition of side chains is their use for frequent, low value transactions, and fixing the block size at 1mb will ensure demand.

your point above is bullshit - if you move 80% of traffic off-chain,  you have enough room to bloat the chain as much as you like. You could put a 100kb spv proof script in there if you like, there will be nothing else in the block except a few sidechain consolidations.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I don't pretend to know how sidechains work.  However, if they sidechain pegs (or whatever you call them)
require more space than a normal transaction, then why are they touted as a scalability solution?



But they are not. So either you are both unknowledgeable and misinformed or you are straight up disingenuous in your attempt at FUD.

Which is it?
One use case of sidechains is, that you peg Bitcoin to a side chain and then do what ever you want with that values on the sidechain for as long as you like
I don't think, a scenario where you peg Bitcoin to the sidechain, do one transaction on the sidechain and then put the values back in the Bitcoin blockchain makes much sense.
As far as I understand, that is what you are saying. If that is not what you are saying, than just be specific, I really don't want to play a guessing game, about what you are actually talking about.

Quote

In your proposal, transactions go to a chain based the addresses involved.We can reasonably assume that different people's wallet will tend to be
distributed uniformly over several sidechains to hold their transactions (if they're not, there is no scaling benefit anyway...). That means that
for an average transaction, you will need a cross-chain transfer in order to get the money to the recipient (as their wallet will usually be
associated to a chain that is different from your own). Either you use an atomic swap (which actually means you end up briefly with coins in the destination chain, and require multiple transactions and a medium delay), or you use the 2way peg transfer mechanism (which is very slow, and reduces the security the recipient has to SPV).


Whatever you do, the result will be that most transactions are:
* Slower (a bit, or a lot, depending on what mechanism you use).
* More complex, with more failure modes.
* Require more and larger transactions (causing a total net extra load on all verifiers together).

And either:
* Less secure (because you rely on a third party to do an atomic swap with,
or because of the 2 way peg transfer mechanism which has SPV security)
* Doesn't offer any scaling benefit (because the recipient needs to fully
validate both his own and the receiver chain).

In short, you have not added any scaling at all, or reduced the security of the system significantly, as well as made it significantly less convenient
to use.

So no, sidechains are not a direct means for solving any of the scaling problems Bitcoin has. What they offer is a mechanism for easier experimentation, so that new technology can be built and tested without needing to introduce a new currency first (with the related speculative and network effect problems). That experimentation could eventually lead us to discover mechanisms for better scaling, or for more scalability/security tradeoffs (see for example the Witness Segregation that Elements Alpha has).

--
Pieter

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/008617.html
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