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Topic: BlockStream or BitcoinXT? Those are your choices, gentlemen. - page 7. (Read 6848 times)

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
@ Carlton

blocks size should be increased with demand / technical progress.

I think you might be a little confused then. Schedules cannot determine demand, that's the opposite of dynamic response. You clearly don't favour either BIP 101 or XT, if demand is involved in your preferred solution.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
but they are talking about it since 2 years. a decision has to be made in the next 3-4 months.

and BIP 103 is a joke in my view...2MB blocks in 2021  Cheesy

There has been a lot of work done to prepare for availability in the last 2 years that already has been implemented.

Do you at least support testing BIP 101 on a testnet as Peter Todd has been requesting for some time?

100%. i would like to stay with core if this is possible.


@ Carlton

blocks size should be increased with demand / technical progress.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Do you at least support testing BIP 101 on a testnet as Peter Todd has been requesting for some time?

Indeed. I wonder who will be in favour of running experiments on the various proposed solutions? It seems like the XT plan is to run an experimental solution on the live network. Where is Mike and Gavin's testbed data?
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
but they are talking about it since 2 years. a decision has to be made in the next 3-4 months.

and BIP 103 is a joke in my view...2MB blocks in 2021  Cheesy

There has been a lot of work done to prepare for availability in the last 2 years that already has been implemented.

Do you at least support testing BIP 101 on a testnet as Peter Todd has been requesting for some time?
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
but they are talking about it since 2 years. a decision has to be made in the next 3-4 months.

and BIP 103 is a joke in my view...2MB blocks in 2021  Cheesy

If that's your logic, then why aren't you arguing for even bigger blocks? If bigger automatically equals better, why not pick infinity as the limit?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
but they are talking about it since 2 years. a decision has to be made in the next 3-4 months.

and BIP 103 is a joke in my view...2MB blocks in 2021  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
Developer EmployerIn favor of
Gavin Andresen MIT8mb+
Mike HearnGoogle, now Vinumeris8mb+
Meni RosenfeldIsraeli Bitcoin Association, Bitcoiltentative 8mb+
Jeff GarzikBitpay, now Dunvegan Space Systems, Inc. 2mb+
Peter ToddViacoin et al.1mb
Luke-JRSubcontracted by Blockstream1mb
Adam BackBlockstream Co-Founder1mb
Matt CoralloBlockstream Co-Founder1mb
GmaxwellBlockstream Co-Founder1mb
Peter WuilleBlockstream Co-Founder1mb
Mark Friedenbach(Maaku7)Blockstream Co-Founder1mb
laanwj MIT 1mb


This is misleading... most developers are in favor of increasing the blocksize above 1MB, They just want to have more realistic and conservative approaches that are thoroughly tested first.

https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/634475022212460545
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Did Satoshi followed Gavin when Cia came on-board?

Presenting bitcoin to the CIA makes you on board? How so?

Well, I don't know about "on-board". But the CIA have a tendency to, well, kill people that espouse world changing views that they dislike. Turns out Gavin didn't offend them as such.

Probably because killing him wouldn't solves any of their problems over a decentralized system. No?

If they didn't want to promote Gavin's system, then inviting him to present on it seems like an unlikely move. Better to choose a computer scientist they could rely on to present the views they wish to be associated with. The organisation (and it's counterparts) is essentially a public relations firm with an undeclared mission statement (propagandising citizens) and extraordinary resources. They don't make mistakes like that, not when they have the opportunity to prepare.
BNO
full member
Activity: 157
Merit: 100
Quote
Quote from: sardokan on Today at 03:12:27 PM
Did Satoshi followed Gavin when Cia came on-board?

Presenting bitcoin to the CIA makes you on board? How so?

This is so typicall for people opposing Bitcoin XT just fear mongering with no substance. Most of the time its as bad as Fox news...

The Cia asked if he would do an 2 hour presentation about bitcoin to them. You might like it or not but government agencies are curious (I don't like it by the way). But this has nothing to do with andresen. Every other person who would have been in his position as core lead would have gotten the same call. And then would the have reacted in the same perfect way he did? He was the one who made publicly known - before the presentation. He even made the presentation available in the Internet. He did this to prevent conspiracy theories...

Just ask yourself: If he was a cia agent with a secret agenda would he then tell everybody that they invited him for a 2 hour presentation that he explains bitcoin to them?

It was just the smart move to deal with a difficult situation: not even holding the presentation would give the impression that Bitcoin has to hide something and would give agencies justification to do something against it. On the other side you don't want to be in bed with them. So he did it just perfect: go there tell them 2 hours long that its a decentralized peer2peer network and so on, but do not cooperate in any way with them and go home. Problem solved.

By the way Bitcoin is open source so what should be hidden in it?

Most people against XT are just taking some stupid stuff and try to frame persons or XT just with no substance its really like Fox news... 75% of the code of Bitcoin has been rewritten over time (ironically mostly by andresen himself), but now he asks for an open debate and public vote on a really minimal change (1MB to 8MB) and that is the incarnation of the devil...
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Another axiom could be that for a cryptocurrency to remain censorship-resistant it is vital that it can be safely run behind Tor. Finally, we could add an axiom that states that some of the new code in Bitcoin XT makes it difficult to run Bitcoin XT safely behind Tor.
First of all, I don't agree with OP. There are more choices. But, even if you make a good point, this is the worst axiom you could choose. You have to proof(or make a logical argument, if you prefer that terminology) , that there is code, that makes it hard to run Bitcoin XT safely behind Tor. An axiom should be something, that can't be proven, not something, you are just too lazy to proof.
Also attacking an axiom is nothing that is somehow forbidden(otherwise I could just take absurd axioms like "the sky is red") as a "logician" you should know that.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
Did Satoshi followed Gavin when Cia came on-board?

Presenting bitcoin to the CIA makes you on board? How so?

Well, I don't know about "on-board". But the CIA have a tendency to, well, kill people that espouse world changing views that they dislike. Turns out Gavin didn't offend them as such.

Probably because killing him wouldn't solves any of their problems over a decentralized system. No?
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Did Satoshi followed Gavin when Cia came on-board?

Presenting bitcoin to the CIA makes you on board? How so?

Well, I don't know about "on-board". But the CIA have a tendency to, well, kill people that espouse world changing views that they dislike. Turns out Gavin didn't offend them as such.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
Did Satoshi followed Gavin when Cia came on-board?

Presenting bitcoin to the CIA makes you on board? How so?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
A group of developers looking to create the "killer bitcoin app" foresaw that the 1 MB block size limit would eventually cause problems that need to be resolved, the solution they devised was BlockStream. An increase in the block size makes Blockstream no longer the "killer app" they hoped it would be, and so they appose the increase. It's that simple. (and this is very dangerous for bitcoin)

Now they are in a position in which they have invested a great deal into Blockstream on the false assumption that block sizes would never be raised. The proposal by Gavin and Hearn challenges their pet (money making) solution that they have invested in.

Gavin and Hearn will not be making profits from Bitcoin XT, but you had better believe the developers of Blockstream will be profiting from the block size remaining unnecessarily low.


This "split" is being caused by the developers who are deeply invested in Blockstream, and the lack of consensus of the developers is what is triggering such uncertainty in the Bitcoin Community. These "small blockists" who have a financial interest in keeping the blocks low are causing this VERY DANGEROUS rift in Bitcoin, not Gavin and Hearn.

A fork that increases block size takes at least 6 months to accomplish, and if we wait until a massive increase in adoption occurs and people discover 8 hour transaction times and very very high fees, Bitcoin will be destroyed in the eyes of the masses. Gavin and Hearn are right to push this change well before it becomes an issue to avoid the kinds of consequences that would cause massive problems in the confidence in Bitcoin in the eyes of the masses.





Then XT. Following Satoshis vision.
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 101
No, not all developers who oppose XT are employed by Blockstream. The choice you sublty try to place users in is created by your manipulative phrasing.

So please tell us, why are you spreading lies? What is your motive to encourage XT by telling blatant lies?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
XT is ready - core is not.

Not the only thing XT is ready for. I'm not interested in XT, please stop offering it to people that clearly do not want it. Is this how people like you usually handle rejection? (harassment)

Huh
You are free to run the blockstream client as long as you want!
You should read Krona Rev's post again.


Yes, he's one of the many who believed that a collective of the millions might be a community. I knew that this will never be the reality. Consensus exists only in communities (Dunbar's number). Large collectives are ruled by the majority.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
I don't need your 'help', thanks.

The record tells a different story.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
XT is ready - core is not.

Not the only thing XT is ready for. I'm not interested in XT, please stop offering it to people that clearly do not want it. Is this how people like you usually handle rejection? (harassment)

Huh
You are free to run the blockstream client as long as you want!

Why aren't you saying that then, instead of offering me again something you know I will reject? You could say "I see where you're coming from, I know what you'd like, Blockstream!". But instead you try telling me that because the one block halving sent transactions surging, then it will again? And XT is the only thing "ready"? It won't be ready for anything if it doesn't get popular support.

I don't offer you anything, and I'm not "telling you that because the one block halving sent transactions surging, then it will again". I'm telling you that if next halving will send transactions surging again, then XT is ready already; core is not. They have to do something, if they want to be ready. But it seems that they don't want. The blockstream devs want to see the txs on their private chain. At least that's the impression of the 8MB block-proponents.

Can you think of any other inevitable events that could (or not...) precipitate increased transactions rates? Perhaps something that directly increases the demand for Bitcoin transactions? if you chose one such example, then you could actually make a good argument based around predictable sudden increases in tx rate. Why am I having to help you construct your argument for you, tell me?

I don't need your 'help', thanks.
sr. member
Activity: 359
Merit: 251
Carlton, you can't argue with these fanatics. Interestingly, I thought I read a post where you were pro-xt a few days ago. I may be mistaken.

At any rate, the choices are never "Blockstream or XT". The BTC network, even during testing, has a fee and age setup to handle more important transactions. There is zero chance that we'll have a problem in the next 10 years unless the entire US and China decides to ditch the USD/Yuan and go to Bitcoin and then the chance is only slightly higher than being hit by lightning because miners are mining ALL THE TIME. Fees will rise for important transactions, less important or free tx's will take a little longer. That's the way it is now. The only change is that fees will rise for immediate transactions.

The End.


hero member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 502
We have to act early to avoid these problems. And Bitcoin XT is not being forced on anyone. 75% consensus is more of a majority than it takes to vote in a president of the United States. I think it is very reasonable to allow people to "vote" in the way Bitcoin XT is being presented.

First, this is a terrible analogy. Changes to the Bitcoin protocol should not be made in any way similar to the way presidents are elected. In any case, presidents can be (and often are) elected by a plurality, not a majority. A candidate with less than 50% of the vote won in 1992, 1996 and 2000.

I think the fear that people are expressing is being caused by people who have a deep interest in BlockStream, not a deep interest in Bitcoin.

I don't have an interest in BlockStream at all. I think the threat of a hard fork with only approximately 75% of the mining power and with a significant portion of the community against it is very dangerous. I started to write that I have a "deep interest" in Bitcoin, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. What I see happening now makes me tend to think the Bitcoin "community" isn't so different from other communities. People split into tribes, shout at each other, call each other names, and then celebrate their victories or console themselves with their losses. I suppose I was too optimistic to think a cryptocurrency community would be different. One reason I thought it was different was that I had the impression that the fundamental rules were fixed and no longer in the hands of fallible humans. It turns out this isn't true.

Regarding BlockStream, it's clear that much of the Bitcoin community finds them controversial. It's also clear that they're doing some groundbreaking research, and that this research would apply to other cryptocurrencies than Bitcoin. Perhaps BlockStream should just implement their ideas for Litecoin and leave it to those in control of XT to develop what Bitcoin is to become. Would you find that preferable to the current situation?

I require a logical argument to oppose Bitcoin XT and I have yet to find one!

Present a logical argument against increasing the block size or admit you are harming Bitcoin by perpetuating this split!

I'm not sure what you would consider a "logical argument." As a logician, I'm inclined to interpret it literally, but I suspect it's not what you intended. A logical argument is a deduction starting from some axioms and leading to a conclusion. In your post you actually referenced two different possible conclusions: XT should be opposed. vs. The block size should not be increased. Now, it should be easier to give a logical argument for why XT should be opposed, since if someone already shows the block size should not be increased, then it logically follows that XT should be opposed.

Of course, it's impossible to conclude that XT should either be opposed, supported or even ignored unless we start from some axioms. This gets to the root of the issue. Different people have different fundamental beliefs about what Bitcoin is and what it should be.

Often I've seen the argument that Bitcoin should be censorship-resistant way for individuals to control their finances free from government control. We could take this as an axiom. Another axiom could be that for a cryptocurrency to remain censorship-resistant it is vital that it can be safely run behind Tor. Finally, we could add an axiom that states that some of the new code in Bitcoin XT makes it difficult to run Bitcoin XT safely behind Tor. With axioms like these, and possibly some more, we could chain together a logical argument ending with "XT should be opposed." I'll flesh out the details of the argument upon demand.

Now, of course, you could say it isn't a logical argument because you don't accept one or more of the axioms, but this is not a criticism of the argument. It's a criticism of the axioms. I could give many logical arguments (and for a reasonable donation I'd be willing to formalize them), but you could always reject the conclusion by rejecting some axioms used. That's just how logic works.

You have certain axioms of your own that I've seen expressed in many places. An assertion that is often made by supporters of XT is that BlockStream wants to keep the block size limit in 1MB so they can make more profit. Using this as an axiom, and probably a few other axioms, one could probably logically argue that BlockStream has nefarious motives for opposing XT. However, even this wouldn't logically rule out the possibility that BlockStream (or, more precisely, the employees of BlockStream) have both nefarious and intellectually pure motives for opposing XT. The possibilities aren't exclusive. Maybe one could argue about whether their primary motive is nefarious or pure, as presumably there is only one primary motive. Logic forces one to be annoyingly precise.

It's natural when people get into these kind of tribal arguments that statements such as "XT should be opposed" or "XT should be supported" themselves rise to the level of axioms, or, fundamental beliefs. Once that happens, any statements that would contradict the fundamental belief are immediately rejected. At that point it's impossible to have a consistent set of beliefs/axioms that would imply the opposing statement. In other words, eventually people are so sure of their position that it's impossible to convince them of anything contrary to it. If that's what's happened here, then every logical argument someone could give which concludes "XT should be opposed" would necessarily have at least one axiom you would reject. Your only other choices would be to change your mind about the conclusion or ignore the argument. Realistically, ignoring arguments is typically what people do in these situations.

This is the most intelligent (and logical) response I have seen in a while.
And I am guessing that the OP will follow the typical route: Realistically, ignoring arguments is typically what people do in these situations.
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