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Topic: "Book club" - page 2. (Read 6482 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
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July 06, 2012, 08:08:33 PM
If I had that much to say about Paul's little manifesto then I would have to write about a 30,000+ word summary of "The Machinery of Freedom", which hopefully I won't feel impelled to do.

At that point, really, you should just write your own book. And I honestly have to say that I would like to read that.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 07:38:55 PM
Has anyone here read "End the Fed" by Ron Paul?  That's a book that I wrote a 4000+ word review on (it was 8 pages).  You can find that here:


http://www.amazon.com/review/R18XZNCCILPI7I/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B006J3V150&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful


If I had that much to say about Paul's little manifesto then I would have to write about a 30,000+ word summary of "The Machinery of Freedom", which hopefully I won't feel impelled to do.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 06:06:31 PM
Well I'm about half done with the book.  Outside of some of the interesting things he says about the school system this book is total garbage.  It's ideological drivel, he spends (in some cases) single paragraphs on something as complex as import tariffs and leaves the reader to a conclusion based on something so brief.

This book, leads the reader to believe that he is somehow qualified to talk about the myriad of topics that DF glosses over in typical ideologue fashion.  He can never actually talk about a single thing in depth, because if he did he would run out of rhetoric and actually have to start discussing details.

He's also very lazy, many things in the book say "I think" or "I believe" about things that aren't hypothesis but relatively easily verifiable facts.

If you pick a page of this book I can likely expose it for the ideological fraud that it is - and this should be evident to anyone, that isn't already a 'true believer'.

Put the book down and read one of these:

Out of those books which do you think would be the most important for a Libertarian to read?

All of them. Seriously. I've never heard a libertarian even be aware of the information, data, and dynamics presented in all of those works.

For a comprehensive overview of humanity's footprint all over the world, Paul Ehrlich's book The Dominant Animal would be a good one.

For a solid understanding of economics as it should be studied and taught, Herman Daly's Beyond Growth: The Economics of Sustainable Development would be recommended.

For a very detailed study of the importance of life on this planet, Edward O. Wilson's book The Future of Life is an excellent recommendation.

For a solid understanding of the dynamics and importance of a balanced ecosystem, I'd suggest The Wolf's Tooth: Keystone Predators, Trophic Cascades, and Biodiversity by Cristina Eisenberg.

Tim Flannery's The Weather Makers is a solid tour of climate change science.

I would, but right now I'm trying to focus on Libertarianism as much as I can.  It is for a much larger project that I am working on that I try and direct my attention in this direction first.

I'll add them to my Amazon wish list though.

=]
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
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July 06, 2012, 05:14:26 PM
I can click the link and skim the book. You will not be pleased if that is the case. Or I can promise to read the book from front to back in a serious manner. That might occur if you put forth some effort on your part.

I have already put forth effort into making that book available to you. It is stored on my Dropbox account, so that I can be sure it will always be there, it is formatted in a manner which is DRM free and easily convertible to any format, or readable directly on your computer. Or, I could, If you would like, do no more than you have done expecting us to read the books you suggested, and post a link to Amazon.

I will not respond to you any more on this subject, until you have indicated that you have downloaded and read the book.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 05:08:55 PM
Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.

I don't know if I can find a freebie for you. Please discuss Ruwart's work.

Please read Ruwart's work, so that we may have an intelligent discourse on it. Summaries are available on the internet.

Please go to a library and get a copy of one of the books I recommended to you.

That is not free of additional expense. I can understand why one might be unwilling to leave the house (or work, as the case may be) and head to the library. but what you are refusing to do is click a link. You have literally expended more energy refusing to do a simple task that I require before discussing the book with you than you would have spent doing it.

Perhaps you should expend some energy in making a book available to you. And perhaps we could all take the material more seriously if we knew we were both serious about reading the material.

I can click the link and skim the book. You will not be pleased if that is the case. Or I can promise to read the book from front to back in a serious manner. That might occur if you put forth some effort on your part.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
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July 06, 2012, 05:03:57 PM
Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.

I don't know if I can find a freebie for you. Please discuss Ruwart's work.

Please read Ruwart's work, so that we may have an intelligent discourse on it. Summaries are available on the internet.

Please go to a library and get a copy of one of the books I recommended to you.

That is not free of additional expense. I can understand why one might be unwilling to leave the house (or work, as the case may be) and head to the library. What you are refusing to do is click a link. You have literally expended more energy refusing to do a simple task that I require before discussing the book with you than you would have spent doing it.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.

I don't know if I can find a freebie for you. Please discuss Ruwart's work.

Please read Ruwart's work, so that we may have an intelligent discourse on it. Summaries are available on the internet.

Please go to a library and get a copy of one of the books I recommended to you.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:51:03 PM
Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.

I don't know if I can find a freebie for you. Please discuss Ruwart's work.

Please read Ruwart's work, so that we may have an intelligent discourse on it. Summaries are available on the internet.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:48:25 PM
Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.

I don't know if I can find a freebie for you. Please discuss Ruwart's work.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:34:03 PM
Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

Please summarize Ruwart's more salient points. What does she propose? What problems does she identify? Please provide some random samples, or the most important ones, or anything at all. I'm all ears.

If you truly were, you would read the book. It is no more - and in fact, significantly less - than you are asking of us.

I have seen zero acknowledgement by you of the books I have recommended. I have seen zero questions from you regarding the books I have recommended. I have seen zero interest by you of the potential material that resides in the books I have recommended.

I have twice now tried to engage you about the material that resides in Ruwart's book.

You are invited to discuss the material in Ruwart's book and engage me on the material that resides in the books I have recommended.

Then I ask you to do exactly the same thing I am doing for you: Provide me, free of charge, a copy of the books to read. Once I have a copy of the books, I will read them, and discuss.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:27:39 PM
Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

Please summarize Ruwart's more salient points. What does she propose? What problems does she identify? Please provide some random samples, or the most important ones, or anything at all. I'm all ears.

If you truly were, you would read the book. It is no more - and in fact, significantly less - than you are asking of us.

I have seen zero acknowledgement by you of the books I have recommended. I have seen zero questions from you regarding the books I have recommended. I have seen zero interest by you of the potential material that resides in the books I have recommended.

I have twice now tried to engage you about the material that resides in Ruwart's book.

You are invited to discuss the material in Ruwart's book and engage me on the material that resides in the books I have recommended.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:07:53 PM
Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

Please summarize Ruwart's more salient points. What does she propose? What problems does she identify? Please provide some random samples, or the most important ones, or anything at all. I'm all ears.

If you truly were, you would read the book. It is no more - and in fact, significantly less - than you are asking of us.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

Please summarize Ruwart's more salient points. What does she propose? What problems does she identify? Please provide some random samples, or the most important ones, or anything at all. I'm all ears.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 03:28:30 PM
Well I'm about half done with the book.  Outside of some of the interesting things he says about the school system this book is total garbage.  It's ideological drivel, he spends (in some cases) single paragraphs on something as complex as import tariffs and leaves the reader to a conclusion based on something so brief.

This book, leads the reader to believe that he is somehow qualified to talk about the myriad of topics that DF glosses over in typical ideologue fashion.  He can never actually talk about a single thing in depth, because if he did he would run out of rhetoric and actually have to start discussing details.

He's also very lazy, many things in the book say "I think" or "I believe" about things that aren't hypothesis but relatively easily verifiable facts.

If you pick a page of this book I can likely expose it for the ideological fraud that it is - and this should be evident to anyone, that isn't already a 'true believer'.

A bit harsh.  I don't agree with DF but for something as potentially dull as a long political tract, he does very well.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 03:12:55 PM
#99
Well I'm about half done with the book.  Outside of some of the interesting things he says about the school system this book is total garbage.  It's ideological drivel, he spends (in some cases) single paragraphs on something as complex as import tariffs and leaves the reader to a conclusion based on something so brief.

This book, leads the reader to believe that he is somehow qualified to talk about the myriad of topics that DF glosses over in typical ideologue fashion.  He can never actually talk about a single thing in depth, because if he did he would run out of rhetoric and actually have to start discussing details.

He's also very lazy, many things in the book say "I think" or "I believe" about things that aren't hypothesis but relatively easily verifiable facts.

If you pick a page of this book I can likely expose it for the ideological fraud that it is - and this should be evident to anyone, that isn't already a 'true believer'.

Put the book down and read one of these:

Out of those books which do you think would be the most important for a Libertarian to read?

All of them. Seriously. I've never heard a libertarian even be aware of the information, data, and dynamics presented in all of those works.

For a comprehensive overview of humanity's footprint all over the world, Paul Ehrlich's book The Dominant Animal would be a good one.

For a solid understanding of economics as it should be studied and taught, Herman Daly's Beyond Growth: The Economics of Sustainable Development would be recommended.

For a very detailed study of the importance of life on this planet, Edward O. Wilson's book The Future of Life is an excellent recommendation.

For a solid understanding of the dynamics and importance of a balanced ecosystem, I'd suggest The Wolf's Tooth: Keystone Predators, Trophic Cascades, and Biodiversity by Cristina Eisenberg.

Tim Flannery's The Weather Makers is a solid tour of climate change science.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 03:09:56 PM
#98
Well I'm about half done with the book.  Outside of some of the interesting things he says about the school system this book is total garbage.  It's ideological drivel, he spends (in some cases) single paragraphs on something as complex as import tariffs and leaves the reader to a conclusion based on something so brief.

This book, leads the reader to believe that he is somehow qualified to talk about the myriad of topics that DF glosses over in typical ideologue fashion.  He can never actually talk about a single thing in depth, because if he did he would run out of rhetoric and actually have to start discussing details.

He's also very lazy, many things in the book say "I think" or "I believe" about things that aren't hypothesis but relatively easily verifiable facts.

If you pick a page of this book I can likely expose it for the ideological fraud that it is - and this should be evident to anyone, that isn't already a 'true believer'.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 03:13:51 PM
#97
Quote
Good job, there, cutting out exactly where I said the line should be drawn, and how that is determined. Let me spell it out for you again. H A R M. if I harm you, I am liable for recompense.

Define 'harm'.

Actually, I think "Damage" would be a better term to use, as it's more precise, especially in the legal sense:

dam·age
   [dam-ij] dam·aged, dam·ag·ing.
noun
1. injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness: The storm did considerable damage to the crops.
2. damages, Law . the estimated money equivalent for detriment or injury sustained.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 03:01:36 PM
#96
Read it again.  First he deals with the NAP, then the rifle example is a justification for taxation and then he justifies the draft.  All there and all clear.

OK, I re-read the rifle example, and I think I see how you call it a justification for taxation. In no place does he describe it as such, but you at least do admit that tax is a theft, and a rights violation, though one intended to prevent a greater one. But the theft of a rifle to prevent a massacre is not the same as a theft of money for unknown purposes. Nor is that money ever returned, while the rifle can be, and is, with compensation for its use, and likely extra compensation to make up for the fact that it was taken against his wishes.

Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

As to the draft, I point out this:
Quote
The point of this argument is not that we should have a draft. As it happens, I not only believe that under present circumstances a draft is a bad thing, I also believe that if the government has the power to impose a draft it is very much more likely that it will use it when it should not than that the rather unlikely circumstances I have described will occur.

I'm about 100 pages in, I'll have to stop making so many notes and references in the margins so I can read it faster.

 Smiley
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 02:59:32 PM
#95
There is much in the book I recommended that I don't agree with, it's just that (the book I referenced) does a good job dispelling certain aspects of what is false about the Free Trade school of Adam Smith and other British Imperialists, much of which was imported or laid the structural foundation for Libertarianism.

So, I can see the need for referencing a book that one doesn't agree with wholly, but IDK what Myrkul's motivation was.

I proposed it mostly for the description of market law.

Rest assured, my next suggestion will be much more what you are expecting from me.

Have you read the chapter called "Problems" where Friedman outlines why the NAP is not an adequate basis for government, he justifies taxation and he justifies conscription?  Do you accept his logic?

I did not see a justification for either taxes or conscription in that chapter, But I can see where you might have. He states, quite correctly, that if one were to to take libertarian principles and blow them out of proportion, the results would be quite silly.


Now the operative word becomes "proportion", which means whatever vague and arbitrary constraints that the Libertarian wants to apply to his interpretation of the holy doctrines.  It's like religious factionalism, the central tenants are so cumbersome and unwieldy that the cult-professors spouting this swill have to apply limiters and arbitrary guidelines to it that actually contradict the central tenants spirit and language.

But that's the point, isn't it, that the doctrine itself is completely arbitrary. 

Good job, there, cutting out exactly where I said the line should be drawn, and how that is determined. Let me spell it out for you again. H A R M. if I harm you, I am liable for recompense.

Define 'harm'.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 04, 2012, 03:11:00 AM
#94
Read it again.  First he deals with the NAP, then the rifle example is a justification for taxation and then he justifies the draft.  All there and all clear.

OK, I re-read the rifle example, and I think I see how you call it a justification for taxation. In no place does he describe it as such, but you at least do admit that tax is a theft, and a rights violation, though one intended to prevent a greater one. But the theft of a rifle to prevent a massacre is not the same as a theft of money for unknown purposes. Nor is that money ever returned, while the rifle can be, and is, with compensation for its use, and likely extra compensation to make up for the fact that it was taken against his wishes.

Which brings me to my next book suggestion: Healing Our World - The Other Piece Of The Puzzle, by Mary J. Ruwart I was going to wait for Niemivh to finish reading the first one, but the discussion has progressed to the point where it's time for you, at least, to read this one. He'll just have to catch up. In the meantime, I intend to see if I can't finish Political Economy.

As to the draft, I point out this:
Quote
The point of this argument is not that we should have a draft. As it happens, I not only believe that under present circumstances a draft is a bad thing, I also believe that if the government has the power to impose a draft it is very much more likely that it will use it when it should not than that the rather unlikely circumstances I have described will occur.
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