Both PoW and PoS algos are scams. Here's why. - page 2.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: yazher on July 15, 2020, 07:21:01 AM

Hey OP I think you need to check this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-masternode-node-full-node-masternode-setup-with-screens-5120117 to get educated of what you are blabbering about. You need to understand it first before giving a nonsense judgement about the POS and POW. there are already a huge number of investors who earned a lot with these new coins and many more are gaining some profits with it by holding these coins. Of course, there is some bad side but when you called them all scam that's not really true at all.

(GUIDE) Masternode, Node, Full Node / Masternode setup with screens. is a good guide on Masternode coins and should be read by people who want to learn what PoS/ masternode coins are.

Let me say some facts about most common accusations of newbie crypto investors on projects they invest money in.

They accused projects are scam because their investments end with losses or worse with serious loses. Reasons behind can be: made wrong enter and exit prices; believe in technology evolutions; believe in promising words from the others; don't do own researches.

If you are in crypto long enough, you will see people called Bitcoin is scam, Ethereum is scam, Dash is scam, Monero is scam. All projects end with loses in their portfolios are scam in their accusations that are not true.

yazher

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Hey OP I think you need to check this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-masternode-node-full-node-masternode-setup-with-screens-5120117 to get educated of what you are blabbering about. You need to understand it first before giving a nonsense judgement about the POS and POW. there are already a huge number of investors who earned a lot with these new coins and many more are gaining some profits with it by holding these coins. Of course, there is some bad side but when you called them all scam that's not really true at all.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: serjent05 on July 14, 2020, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 09, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: batang_bitcoin on July 09, 2020, 11:37:29 AM

If that's what you think, ok then. But you can't replace these consensus with what you are believing but if you have a better proposal to change these algos into the consensus algorithm that you know which is safer and more secured, you can give that proposal or make it happen.

Yes, I actually have. A hybrid Proof-of-Replication, Proof-of-Retrieval and Proof-of-Stake would be better because Proof-of-Replication and Proof-of-Retrieval are used for validating any data. Not only value transactions.

That is kinda interesting concept. Care to show us how can you secure the data around these concepts? What method will you use? How can you prevent hijackers and hackers from modifying the data? Will you build a centralized panel to control the flaw and verify each transaction? Or will you be using POW or POS to support the security of these concepts?

It's a peer-to-peer distributed permanent database just like a blockchain, but instead of a synchronizing the entire ledger with each transactions, it hashes the data and stores it in just few random anonymous nodes. This way hackers have no idea what to look for and where to look for it. The Proof-of-Replication algorithm replaces PoW as the validator of these events. Proof-of-Retrieval algorithm actually generates value by contributing bandwidth to the network.

serjent05

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 09, 2020, 12:42:58 PM

Quote from: batang_bitcoin on July 09, 2020, 11:37:29 AM

If that's what you think, ok then. But you can't replace these consensus with what you are believing but if you have a better proposal to change these algos into the consensus algorithm that you know which is safer and more secured, you can give that proposal or make it happen.

Yes, I actually have. A hybrid Proof-of-Replication, Proof-of-Retrieval and Proof-of-Stake would be better because Proof-of-Replication and Proof-of-Retrieval are used for validating any data. Not only value transactions.

That is kinda interesting concept. Care to show us how can you secure the data around these concepts? What method will you use? How can you prevent hijackers and hackers from modifying the data? Will you build a centralized panel to control the flaw and verify each transaction? Or will you be using POW or POS to support the security of these concepts?

MisO69

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:53:01 PM

Quote from: Stanlo on July 08, 2020, 02:47:43 PM

Honestly I'm a bit disappointed about this your post OP, you need to do research on the power of demand and supply to really understand proof of work and proof of stake algorithm, calling Algorithms scam doesn't make sense

Can you please explain what exactly is the commodity that is in such high demand here?

Freedom.

In traditional FIAT currencies your money or time if you will is not controlled by you. Financial policies are not controlled by you. At any time the rules of the game can change, and have changed. Just recently we have observed this with the run-away printing of USD.

bitgoldpanther1978

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes. This is why every single Proof-of-Work algorithm crypto has to be supported with FIAT money, which honestly speaking makes them all hybrid PoW/PoS. Proof-of-Stake is a scam because it's just money backed with money.

This is no doubt definitely a technical matter, and to be honest I'm too weak for this type of conversation.
But anyway, even I don't have any idea about what you are talking about in POS and POW just all I know was
during 2017 this two became popular by that time I just don't know this time.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: pixie85 on July 14, 2020, 02:39:19 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 12, 2020, 02:11:01 AM

Quote from: pixie85 on July 11, 2020, 04:40:39 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 11, 2020, 03:15:37 PM

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability.

So according to you miners who mine PoW Bitcoin are losing money? Last time I checked Bitcoin was worth more than it costed in fiat money to mine it.

Add that it also confirms transactions and that there are fees paid willingly for every confirmation and you'll see that the ecosystem is working well.

You pay for a transaction. What does it mean that your transaction costs more than it makes? Cheesy

That's not what I wrote. I'm talking about Bitcoin itself as a so called investment. Miners are the only ones who make money. They have not invested in Bitcoin. They have invested in mining hardware. They mine Bitcoin because people are still fooled into buying it. There is no other reason to mine it. It has no utility. It has value because people have put money in it, but it's still a liability. Liabilities cost money. They just don't make money.

OK, so miners make money.

I bought Bitcoin a couple years ago and made money on my investment. I also know a bunch of people who made a lot of money on Bitcoin. If PoW is a scam, but miners made money and many investors made money, who was scammed?

From a different perspective, Bitcoin is money. Do we really have to keep making money from money? Is it really Bitcoin's purpose to bring you financial profit?
How about some financial freedom?

Yeah I know everyone has just made a lot of money in Las Vegas too, an nobody has lost any money. I know.

pixie85

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 12, 2020, 02:11:01 AM

Quote from: pixie85 on July 11, 2020, 04:40:39 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 11, 2020, 03:15:37 PM

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability.

So according to you miners who mine PoW Bitcoin are losing money? Last time I checked Bitcoin was worth more than it costed in fiat money to mine it.

Add that it also confirms transactions and that there are fees paid willingly for every confirmation and you'll see that the ecosystem is working well.

You pay for a transaction. What does it mean that your transaction costs more than it makes? Cheesy

That's not what I wrote. I'm talking about Bitcoin itself as a so called investment. Miners are the only ones who make money. They have not invested in Bitcoin. They have invested in mining hardware. They mine Bitcoin because people are still fooled into buying it. There is no other reason to mine it. It has no utility. It has value because people have put money in it, but it's still a liability. Liabilities cost money. They just don't make money.

OK, so miners make money.

I bought Bitcoin a couple years ago and made money on my investment. I also know a bunch of people who made a lot of money on Bitcoin. If PoW is a scam, but miners made money and many investors made money, who was scammed?

From a different perspective, Bitcoin is money. Do we really have to keep making money from money? Is it really Bitcoin's purpose to bring you financial profit?
How about some financial freedom?

coinfinger

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Quote from: Fluttershy on July 09, 2020, 01:23:44 PM

Mining top coins are not that cost-effective but mining a coin early which we believe will have a great future is a whole different game.
but in case of PoS you need money to make money.

Actually I don't see any problem with PoS coins because in real world itself the principle works that real is supposed to be getting richer and the poorer will get poorer and while you like it or not that's how it works so I see no problem if the same applies to coins.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 12, 2020, 02:11:01 AM

That's not what I wrote. I'm talking about Bitcoin itself as a so called investment. Miners are the only ones who make money. They have not invested in Bitcoin. They have invested in mining hardware. They mine Bitcoin because people are still fooled into buying it.

While you have a point but let me try and explain you, people use bitcoins for various tasks that can't be achieved otherwise so they buy bitcoins and miners are getting paid to mine those coins so everyone is at benefit and that is what the power of an ecosystem is and why it exists.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 12, 2020, 02:11:01 AM

There is no other reason to mine it. It has no utility. It has value because people have put money in it, but it's still a liability. Liabilities cost money. They just don't make money.

But, if you look into most cryptos, they are lagging with utilities still they manage to have higher value due to speculative reasons. Based on speculations, investors and traders continuously pumping it. If people look for a coin with utility characteristics to mine, then probably they will be left with very few options which again goes against them as heavy competitions in mining leads to industry like mining which is exactly happening with BTC mining.

Ucy

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The current PoW model was an important solution to a problem of it's time. PoS brings it's own important solutions to current problems in consensus but not without potential consequences or disadvantages.
I think efficient hybrid would be good... maybe by mixing PoW with unique ID, reputation, rewards (esp coin rewards).
I will basically go for consensus algorithm that:
1. Is not hard to participate in
2. can choose the best
3. Reward all participants accordingly
4. Can't be exploited or abused
5. Is very decentralized
6. Can't be centralized
7. Is efficient
Etc...

FLHippy

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You need a consensus to verify transactions and to make it legit. Without verifiers around the world, you won´t have decentralization and you can forget about network credibility. PoW means that users need to spend energy to verify transactions, Pos means that users need to spend money to buy coins and after that they are authorized to verify transaction. This prevents cheating because who would cheat against his property.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: tbct_mt2 on July 09, 2020, 08:09:44 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes. This is why every single Proof-of-Work algorithm crypto has to be supported with FIAT money, which honestly speaking makes them all hybrid PoW/PoS. Proof-of-Stake is a scam because it's just money backed with money.

Hmm. What leads you to the statement?

Scam is scam. Does it matter that scam comes from banks, real estates, stocks, bitcoin or altcoins? There are good and bad projects in crypto. Among bad projects, there are scam projects that are created initially by scammers and initial purposes of scammers are only scam investors and get a fortune to run away.

From what I see, fiats are scam too. Cool

Collection of comprehensive guides on identify and avoid scam projects

Yes FIATs are a scam too, but that's not the topic here. But because the value of PoW and PoS are supported with just FIAT, they will also go down together with FIAT. The market correlation became very clear now with the dive that Dow Jones made this spring.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: bgaf on July 09, 2020, 10:43:00 PM

So you are saying OP most or should I say majority of coins and tokens are scam including bitcoin and eth which utilize these protocols. I think you got it wrong and your reasoning is too shallow to be able to say its a scam. The invention of those mechanism served as building blocks for a succesful blockchain projects then your saying its a scam? I dont know know if you even know how these protocol works in blockchain. The holding statement is like a chilidish reasoning like a kid that been stolen some candy. Do some reading and analyze it.

Eth announced two years ago already that it's ditching PoW. The only reason they mine them is that people buy them as some kind of novelty item to possess. There is no real usage. Currency is mean to be used.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: pixie85 on July 11, 2020, 04:40:39 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 11, 2020, 03:15:37 PM

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability.

So according to you miners who mine PoW Bitcoin are losing money? Last time I checked Bitcoin was worth more than it costed in fiat money to mine it.

Add that it also confirms transactions and that there are fees paid willingly for every confirmation and you'll see that the ecosystem is working well.

You pay for a transaction. What does it mean that your transaction costs more than it makes? Cheesy

That's not what I wrote. I'm talking about Bitcoin itself as a so called investment. Miners are the only ones who make money. They have not invested in Bitcoin. They have invested in mining hardware. They mine Bitcoin because people are still fooled into buying it. There is no other reason to mine it. It has no utility. It has value because people have put money in it, but it's still a liability. Liabilities cost money. They just don't make money.

pixie85

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 11, 2020, 03:15:37 PM

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability.

So according to you miners who mine PoW Bitcoin are losing money? Last time I checked Bitcoin was worth more than it costed in fiat money to mine it.

Add that it also confirms transactions and that there are fees paid willingly for every confirmation and you'll see that the ecosystem is working well.

You pay for a transaction. What does it mean that your transaction costs more than it makes? Cheesy

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: mu_enrico on July 09, 2020, 11:36:59 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes.

Whooooahh, how dare you talk shit about PoW Grin

Something cost more than it makes is a scam? Not because of inefficiency aka obsolete mining rigs?
If you can't make money out of your mining activity, it is because:
- your mining rig sucks;
- your electricity cost sucks;
- you try to mine shitcoin.

But your conclusion: PoW is a scam. Yeah right.

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability.

mu_enrico

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes.

Whooooahh, how dare you talk shit about PoW Grin

Something cost more than it makes is a scam? Not because of inefficiency aka obsolete mining rigs?
If you can't make money out of your mining activity, it is because:
- your mining rig sucks;
- your electricity cost sucks;
- you try to mine shitcoin.

But your conclusion: PoW is a scam. Yeah right.

bgaf

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So you are saying OP most or should I say majority of coins and tokens are scam including bitcoin and eth which utilize these protocols. I think you got it wrong and your reasoning is too shallow to be able to say its a scam. The invention of those mechanism served as building blocks for a succesful blockchain projects then your saying its a scam? I dont know know if you even know how these protocol works in blockchain. The holding statement is like a chilidish reasoning like a kid that been stolen some candy. Do some reading and analyze it.

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 08, 2020, 02:42:27 PM

The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes. This is why every single Proof-of-Work algorithm crypto has to be supported with FIAT money, which honestly speaking makes them all hybrid PoW/PoS. Proof-of-Stake is a scam because it's just money backed with money.

Your arguments are seeming not enough to back your points? Did you start this topic out of rush or after facing frustrating mining experience?

If Proof-of-Work will be profitable then you will agree it is not a scam? It must be profitable otherwise how BTC blockchain network is guarded by this much hashes? I read all mining rewards are profitable with respect to future prices. In this way those miners might be selling their rewards which were belonging to prior to 2016 blocks which was 25BTC per block. If they manage to hold until today then they must be enjoying the power of long term holding. I guess that is the one of the right way to do BTC mining.

Proof-of-Stake is as well scam? Because we need initial investment to set it? Then what costs you zero to start with? If anything available for free of cost then you will agree that is not a scam? Honestly could not get your perspective; you must add more points to stand up with your arguments.

Bezobraznike

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I didn't see anything here to convince me that PoW and PoS are scams! While some people are making good passive income,
while Ethereum goes PoS, how can anyone believe that these two are scams?
I need much more evidences to convince me that these two are scams. For now this thread will be just a FUD for me, when I
see some evidences I will think about changing my mind.

Topic: Both PoW and PoS algos are scams. Here's why. - page 2. (Read 483 times)