I hope it won't happen. Various backward compatible upgrade (especially major ones such as SegWit) already make maintaining Bitcoin software/library difficult.
It will never happen because there is no reason for it, at least not in our lifetime and most importantly the bitcoin supply and how it works is one of the main principles of Bitcoin which means it is extremely difficult to get anybody to accept a major change in it. 
Topic: breaking the satoshi's (Read 621 times)
So my counter question is, why is it not possible to upgrade the current version of Satoshi through its development?
What exactly do you mean by "upgrade the current version of Satoshi"? If you refer to split Bitcoin on smaller fraction, it's possible on technical level. But IIRC it require hard fork and changes of various software which used to manage Bitcoin, which makes it's hard to achieve.
Yeah I wanted to ask on technical level only. So whatever upgrades are done they are basically soft forks. Does it mean we end up creating other coin like those BCH, WBTC and coins like that?
Such upgrade could be either hard fork or soft fork (as stated by @pooya87). But both hard-fork and soft-fork doesn't create other/new coin. Coin such as BCH only created because some people want to split themselves from Bitcoin. Meanwhile WBTC is pegged token, where you need to trust the issuer.
If you refer to split Bitcoin on smaller fraction, it's possible on technical level. But IIRC it require hard fork and changes of various software which used to manage Bitcoin, which makes it's hard to achieve.
Let's just say such a change is much better implemented through a hard fork than a soft fork but it is not impossible. We should technically be able to come up with a very messy way to implement it and still remain backward compatible (ie. through a soft fork without needing others to upgrade). It requires adding a new field (and stripping it for old nodes like SegWit did) that holds the fractions but it should keep them there even when they overflow.I hope it won't happen. Various backward compatible upgrade (especially major ones such as SegWit) already make maintaining Bitcoin software/library difficult.
Lets say we have a UTXO worth 2 satoshis to break into two new UTXOs worth 1.8 and 0.2.
- UTXO_1 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.8.
- UTXO_2 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 0 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.2.
When spending UTXO 1 and 2 the new UTXO would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 1.0 satoshi.
This way the old nodes see the amount field is not overflowing (1+0<=1) while the new nodes seeing both fields can see the fractions and verify that it also is not overflowing ([1+0=1] + [0.8+0.2=1] <= [1+1]).
- UTXO_1 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.8.
- UTXO_2 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 0 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.2.
When spending UTXO 1 and 2 the new UTXO would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 1.0 satoshi.
This way the old nodes see the amount field is not overflowing (1+0<=1) while the new nodes seeing both fields can see the fractions and verify that it also is not overflowing ([1+0=1] + [0.8+0.2=1] <= [1+1]).
At a glance it might work, but i expect it could break some software which used to accept or manage one's Bitcoin.
If you refer to split Bitcoin on smaller fraction, it's possible on technical level. But IIRC it require hard fork and changes of various software which used to manage Bitcoin, which makes it's hard to achieve.
Let's just say such a change is much better implemented through a hard fork than a soft fork but it is not impossible. We should technically be able to come up with a very messy way to implement it and still remain backward compatible (ie. through a soft fork without needing others to upgrade). It requires adding a new field (and stripping it for old nodes like SegWit did) that holds the fractions but it should keep them there even when they overflow.Lets say we have a UTXO worth 2 satoshis to break into two new UTXOs worth 1.8 and 0.2.
- UTXO_1 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.8.
- UTXO_2 would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 0 satoshi and the new one holding the 0.2.
When spending UTXO 1 and 2 the new UTXO would have two amount fields, the old one holding the 1 satoshi and the new one holding the 1.0 satoshi.
This way the old nodes see the amount field is not overflowing (1+0<=1) while the new nodes seeing both fields can see the fractions and verify that it also is not overflowing ([1+0=1] + [0.8+0.2=1] <= [1+1]).
--snip--
This is mind blowing fact about the Bitcoin/Satoshi. I can not imagine the fact that we can’t spend anything less than a dollar if price really goes to that extend. Though we have workaround like you suggested, using LN but I’m not sure how everyone will react about this fact in the future.But in the future inflation would make more goods cost more than $1, so it's not as concerning as you though. And people who often make send/receive very small amount of Bitcoin would enjoy benefit of LN.
That definitely make sense. Inflation will also take over the goods and services which are also appreciating in their value every year. So with this ideology it may happen that the lowest price tag in a mall could be more than $1. A candy might cost me $5 who knows? So it would not be issue anymore that if satoshi is worth 1 dollar or more in the future.
Also makes sense, as the last reward for mining Bitcoin in the future is something 1 satoshi etc. It might be that Satoshi already projected price of 1 satoshi might just go above thousands of USD so that it will reward the miners with proper rewards.
So my counter question is, why is it not possible to upgrade the current version of Satoshi through its development?
What exactly do you mean by "upgrade the current version of Satoshi"? If you refer to split Bitcoin on smaller fraction, it's possible on technical level. But IIRC it require hard fork and changes of various software which used to manage Bitcoin, which makes it's hard to achieve.
Yeah I wanted to ask on technical level only. So whatever upgrades are done they are basically soft forks. Does it mean we end up creating other coin like those BCH, WBTC and coins like that?
Is it a closed coding which can not be touched any further and thus making it difficult to rewrite entirely?
No. Both Bitcoin protocol and many full node software are open source.This also makes me think, was there any specific reason as to why Satoshi divide bitcoin to currently available digits on the right hand side of decimal? I’m sure there is answer for this, it’s just I don’t know this I guess.
There are so many theory and speculation about it. Although i've seen some people use this Satoshi post as reference of their theory/speculation, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11405.Thanks for the share!
and in year 2136, the rewards will become 1 satoshi then obviously bitcoin price would became much much higher then today's, so price of 1 satoshi may also be more then $1, so how we will cut the satoshi in half when we want to pay $0.5.
I swear I had this discussion at least three times before somewhere on this board, but this is the only reply I can seem to find from it using the search feature:
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A soft fork must restrict the transactions that are valid. Your proposal increases the transactions that are valid.
How? Currently transactions sending from zero coins to zero coins have no restrictions at all (except matching signatures of course). In the new format, they would be valid only if new amounts would match.I think that sending zero satoshis is the only option to completely skip amount validation. Using any other amount would mean that adding them would be necessary. Also, if going from this new format to the old one should be possible, then all fees from such zero satoshi outputs could be collected in some special output and splitted between old accounts when needed.
Quote
No. That is nonsense. If someone spent two 0.5 satoshi inputs and had a single output of 1 satoshi output, an old node would need to recognize the output as being valid
It will recognize them as valid. The old node would see two zero satoshi inputs and single zero satoshi output. Unless that new output should be in the old format, then it would be taken from previously accumulated coins (because if someone converted N old satoshis to new zero satoshis, all these coins were taken as fees and placed in a special coinbase output).Quote
One problem with a floating-point representation is that the system will lose satoshis due to precision adjustment.
Quote
I think that 56 bits should be sufficient to express any amount precisely enough, and the first 8 bits just allow to shift them to the right and express smaller amounts in this way.
If more precision is needed, then more than one output should be used.Quote
For example, lets assume a simple decimal system with 1 digit of precision. In this system, a transaction with 2 inputs of 0.9 satoshis each, can have a maximum output of 1 satoshi, for a permanent loss of 0.8 satoshis.
No, it can be saved by creating two outputs, one with 0.8 satoshis and one with single satoshi. And we talk here about 56 bits of precision, so such cases would be extremely rare.Basically, a mechanism for storing a larger amount of satoshis with more precision can be added in the raw transaction as part of a soft fork, while placing a dummy value for the input/output amounts in the original place.
just assume,
if the bitcoin price rose very much that one satoshi's price became $1 and a person need to send $0.50 to another person,
how would he send half of satoshi?
is it possible to break satoshi in parts or any other solution?
it's just an assumption so don't reply me with hate and don't tell me that at that time the $1 will worth 0.01 cents. my question is that is it possible to send half satoshi?
if the bitcoin price rose very much that one satoshi's price became $1 and a person need to send $0.50 to another person,
how would he send half of satoshi?
is it possible to break satoshi in parts or any other solution?
it's just an assumption so don't reply me with hate and don't tell me that at that time the $1 will worth 0.01 cents. my question is that is it possible to send half satoshi?
As already pointed out, it is very unlikely this will be relevant in the foreseeable future. Even if, there are possible solutions, either via L2 chains or by a fork that could most llikely find a massive majority (consensus) if the need is really there.
However, one thing to keep in mind: $Cents today are mostly used in theory/on paper. It's easy to keep track off-chain of these tiny amounts when making a purchase and if the Bitcoin protocol would indeed not allow amounts to be sent that are below $1, it's very likely vendors would just round down prices at the exit point of their shop system for customers. These tiny amounts are just not really relevant in real-life business is what I am saying.
tldr: Many solutions available for a "problem" that still is on a long way to actually become a problem.
--snip--
This is mind blowing fact about the Bitcoin/Satoshi. I can not imagine the fact that we can’t spend anything less than a dollar if price really goes to that extend. Though we have workaround like you suggested, using LN but I’m not sure how everyone will react about this fact in the future.But in the future inflation would make more goods cost more than $1, so it's not as concerning as you though. And people who often make send/receive very small amount of Bitcoin would enjoy benefit of LN.
So my counter question is, why is it not possible to upgrade the current version of Satoshi through its development?
What exactly do you mean by "upgrade the current version of Satoshi"? If you refer to split Bitcoin on smaller fraction, it's possible on technical level. But IIRC it require hard fork and changes of various software which used to manage Bitcoin, which makes it's hard to achieve.
Is it a closed coding which can not be touched any further and thus making it difficult to rewrite entirely?
No. Both Bitcoin protocol and many full node software are open source.
This also makes me think, was there any specific reason as to why Satoshi divide bitcoin to currently available digits on the right hand side of decimal? I’m sure there is answer for this, it’s just I don’t know this I guess.
There are so many theory and speculation about it. Although i've seen some people use this Satoshi post as reference of their theory/speculation, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11405.
my question is that is it possible to send half satoshi?
At current moment it's impossible. In addition, sending less than few hundred satoshi (vary by address type) is considered as dust output and other node won't broadcast your transaction. However it's possible with either soft/hard fork to add smaller unit/more precision. And as workaround, it's already possible to do so on Lightning Network. Although the amount will be rounded down when you close channel.
This is mind blowing fact about the Bitcoin/Satoshi. I can not imagine the fact that we can’t spend anything less than a dollar if price really goes to that extend. Though we have workaround like you suggested, using LN but I’m not sure how everyone will react about this fact in the future. So my counter question is, why is it not possible to upgrade the current version of Satoshi through its development? Is it a closed coding which can not be touched any further and thus making it difficult to rewrite entirely? This also makes me think, was there any specific reason as to why Satoshi divide bitcoin to currently available digits on the right hand side of decimal? I’m sure there is answer for this, it’s just I don’t know this I guess.
and in year 2136, the rewards will become 1 satoshi then obviously bitcoin price would became much much higher then today's, so price of 1 satoshi may also be more then $1, so how we will cut the satoshi in half when we want to pay $0.5.
you don't need it right now. 1 satoshi is $0.0002822 USD. the value of bitcoin would have to increase 70/80 times to make a Satoshi equal a cent. at that point Maybe you will need it
One easy way to think about Satoshi: when Bitcoin go to 1 million dollars (Hal's terminal value would be 10 million, actually) one satoshi would be worth 1 cent. So when receiving 100 satoshi today, you are receiving one dollar when bitcoin gets to 1 million dollars (nothing is said about the real purchasing power of such a sum. For OP, sending half of a satoshi would be impossible because satoshi is already the smallest unit of Bitcoin. However, there are other cryptocurrencies or altcoins that use different units of measurement for that to make it happen.
It is not impossible, you can send millisats, but you wouldnt because it is an extremely tiny amount of money.
if the bitcoin price rose very much that one satoshi's price became $1 and a person need to send $0.50 to another person
They could send them milli-sats. They're not exactly like sats, they don't exist in the main chain, but it's a very real concept off-chain...If it ever comes to that, it will be interesting to see two things: what the new dust limit will be, and what the new fee rate will look like.
you don't need it right now. 1 satoshi is $0.0002822 USD. the value of bitcoin would have to increase 70/80 times to make a Satoshi equal a cent. at that point Maybe you will need it
One easy way to think about Satoshi: when Bitcoin go to 1 million dollars (Hal's terminal value would be 10 million, actually) one satoshi would be worth 1 cent. So when receiving 100 satoshi today, you are receiving one dollar when bitcoin gets to 1 million dollars (nothing is said about the real purchasing power of such a sum. For OP, sending half of a satoshi would be impossible because satoshi is already the smallest unit of Bitcoin. However, there are other cryptocurrencies or altcoins that use different units of measurement for that to make it happen.
you don't need it right now. 1 satoshi is $0.0002822 USD. the value of bitcoin would have to increase 70/80 times to make a Satoshi equal a cent. at that point Maybe you will need it
One easy way to think about Satoshi: when Bitcoin go to 1 million dollars (Hal's terminal value would be 10 million, actually) one satoshi would be worth 1 cent. So when receiving 100 satoshi today, you are receiving one dollar when bitcoin gets to 1 million dollars (nothing is said about the real purchasing power of such a sum.
you don't need it right now. 1 satoshi is $0.0002822 USD. the value of bitcoin would have to increase 70/80 times to make a Satoshi equal a cent. at that point Maybe you will need it
exactly what Im saying, not to mention millisat is a thing on lightning its not a real problem
you don't need it right now. 1 satoshi is $0.0002822 USD. the value of bitcoin would have to increase 70/80 times to make a Satoshi equal a cent. at that point Maybe you will need it
According to consensus rules, the amount field in a bitcoin transaction must be an integer between 0 and 2100000000000000. (Note that in the bitcoin protocol, we deal with satoshis, not BTC. So, 1 = 1 sat)
The amount field can technically be treated as an unsigned 64-bit integer which means the max value is 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 which is more than enough for a slight increase in the division, something like shifting the value left and using the extra bits as the fraction of satoshi.for bitcoin without a fork is not possible, but we can send value through other coins (that's nice idea to transfer value)
We could come up with a complicated soft-fork that would handle such a thing too. Like adding an extra field (like how we added witness through a soft fork) to handle the extra values (ie. fraction of a satoshi) then round the values down to remain backward compatible.
The thing is you do have a working payment system in Bitcoin and every other alt-coin offers you an utterly inferior proof of finality for meaningfully sized or timed payments. Not to mention this problem is irrelevant meaning it is not a problem that real end-users have with bitcoin today and it has been solved as i mentioned in my above response which you ignored.
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1 sat is $0.000280 I think we will have to see a 100x on the price of BTC (2,800,000) before this becomes relevant to solve. But it is technically solved with millisatoshi and c-lightning: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/83475/what-makes-millisatoshi-real
- me above
- me above
for bitcoin without a fork is not possible, but we can send value through other coins (that's nice idea to transfer value)
That might be a practical solution, but would be a disappointment for bitcoin. In my oppinion bitcoin should try to focus on practical usage. That means fast transaction times, low fees and good usability. If you need different altcoins that can be worthless any minute you will not have a good working payment system with bitcoin.
1 sat is $0.000280 I think we will have to see a 100x on the price of BTC (2,800,000) before this becomes relevant to solve. But it is technically solved with millisatoshi and c-lightning: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/83475/what-makes-millisatoshi-real
Not without a fork. But, as has been said the odds of needing it without a lot of things changing are fairly small.
And it's probably so far in the future none of us are going to be alive to care about it.
-Dave
And it's probably so far in the future none of us are going to be alive to care about it.
-Dave
for bitcoin without a fork is not possible, but we can send value through other coins (that's nice idea to transfer value)
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