BTC: cutting the trace - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 16, 2022, 03:04:35 PM

Must this adversary (or any data collector) be watching me live, exactly to the time point, if I would make the swap with ETH?

No, not at all. Given that both Bitcoin's and Ethereum's blockchains are completely public, anyone can look back at any point in the future and try to link your transactions together. Hence why you would want to use Monero.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 16, 2022, 03:04:35 PM

And if at that time point there was no data collecting and I have moved the ETH around, waited as long as possible before swapping back,
then in retrospect it would be the same with ETH like Monero?

Again, no. Since Ethereum is public, then simply moving coins around a bit is easily tracked, which again is another reason to use Monero, since such movements cannot be tracked.

But as I mentioned above, given how complicated this is, and the many potential pitfalls, most people just opt to use a mixer instead.

Mbidox

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 16, 2022, 06:53:16 AM

... then an adversary who was watching you might be able ...

Thank you.
Must this adversary (or any data collector) be watching me live, exactly to the time point, if I would make the swap with ETH?

And if at that time point there was no data collecting and I have moved the ETH around, waited as long as possible before swapping back,
then in retrospect it would be the same swapping with ETH like Monero?

(I don't want to do this, I just want to better understand.)

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 16, 2022, 03:30:59 AM

With ChipMixer - cheap, fast, convenient, low risk, and secure.

One thing I'd add, is that you send and receive coins of the same value, and therefore have better control. If you were to do a BTC <-> XMR swap, and a few days later, a XMR <-> BTC swap, you'd likely receive a different amount, because the market value of XMR/BTC would likely have changed.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 16, 2022, 06:41:36 AM

The trace on the ETH, if I would use ETH, is not from me.

It doesn't matter if it was from you. What it matters is to not have your bitcoin activity linked to your ethereum balance.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 16, 2022, 06:41:36 AM

But why is this relevant in the case of switching BTC into another coin and switch back to cut the trace?

If you trade BTC for ETH, and then later trade that ETH back to BTC, then an adversary who was watching you might be able to link up your trades across the two public blockchains and therefore track what you did. They can look for an ETH transaction of an identical value to the BTC transaction you made occurring around about the same time, and then be able to make a reasonable guess as to which ETH are now in your possession. They can repeat this again in reverse to link your new bitcoin to your old bitcoin. This is impossible with Monero.

You also have to consider how you interact with the Ethereum blockchain. The most popular Ethereum wallets, such as MetaMask or multi-coin wallets, are in no way private, and harvest lots of data including your IP address, crypto addresses, and balances and transactions. Monero, on the other hand, can either be run via your own node or connecting to another node via Tor to mitigate these risks.

Mbidox

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Thank you all very much. I appreciate it.

I see the advantage of a good mixer now.

But back to the other method:
I do not understand, why privacy (cutting the trace) is better when I make A) instead of B).

A) I use Bisq to switch my BTC into Monero and switch back to BTC (with a different amount).
B) I use Bisq to switch my BTC into ETH and switch back to BTC (with a different amount).

I know, that Monero does not provide a history of the past transactions, but ETH does.
But why is this relevant in the case of switching BTC into another coin and switch back to cut the trace?
The trace on the ETH, if I would use ETH, is not from me. So the past transactions of this ETHs would be useless, if somebody would try to follow my past transactions. What am I missing?

Would be thankful for an answer. Thank you.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

Why do people use BTC mixer

With ChipMixer - cheap, fast, convenient, low risk, and secure. I can send coins to be mixed and leave them on ChipMixer for as long as I want, and access them at any time I choose. I can have a handy supply of mixed coins I can access at a moment's notice at any time. Additionally, thanks to ChipMixer's chip structure, I can only withdraw what I need, meaning I can usually avoid creating change which gives me even more privacy.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

The only truly private altcoin is Monero, and the only truly private DEX to trade it on is Bisq. Swapping Bitcoin to Monero is a viable mixing technique, but you should then move the Monero around, wait as long as possible before swapping it back, swap it back in a different amount than you traded in the first place, and with a different third party. While this is entirely possible, it is slower, has higher fees, is far more cumbersome to do, and potentially less private if you mess up.

Also, if you are using a centralized service which is discriminating against some bitcoin because they claim they are "dirty", then that service is actively attacking and undermining bitcoin's fungibility as well as monitoring and censoring you, and you would do well to find a different service to use.

Lucius

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

I will never make this, because this would make my BTC suspect. And there is a risk to make my BTC's dirty.

When you talk about tainted BTC, then you should know that you also very likely have BTC that originates from some problematic/suspicious transaction - so if someone really wants to analyze the history of your BTC, a link to some dirty coins would not be strange. All those who would be strictly guided by accepting only virgin BTC would very quickly find themselves in a big problem.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

Of course if we make the change on a CEX, it would be possible to trace back the origin, because the CEX will have a history-protocol. But I guess not, when we make this via DEX.

I know that Bisq works in such a way that each user has the software on his computer, and the connection between users is via the TOR network, so that the user's privacy is ensured. I cited it as an example of DEX, which is often mentioned in a positive sense when it comes to secure and no KYC trading.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

If I am right: Why do people use BTC mixer? Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

Not all mixers are the same, and even the best ones cannot ensure user privacy if they use them in the wrong way. The goal is not only to break the link between your deposit and what you will get as a result of the mix, but also to be smart and use mixed coins with a time delay to make it difficult for someone to connect deposit A with withdrawal B.

jackg

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Some dexes might also be built on chains that are similar to bitcoin so you could trace where the fund have come and gone from (perhaps explicitly or otherwise). It probably looks obvious on places you spend coins if the underlying protocol takes a % of a fee and batches it with your trade transaction as a smart contract, this would mean external sources might be able to track where your "change" is and denonymise you that way.

That's excluding the other issue of sending fixed amounts to mixers or exchanges (are you going to analyse this)? A non custodial dex might be a "safer" alternative than a mixer (fewer devices to hack - although a mixer acts well fairly autonomously and has their own funds to prove they're secure) but comes with the risk of making you easier to denonymise (most dexes aren't marketed for privacy mixing - they might be a good step to include but aren't great on their own) if you send a specific amount that looks odd or the dex doesn't have high enough volume to mask your trades.

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

And there is a risk to make my BTC's dirty.

All Bitcoins are equal be design, there is no such thing as "dirty" Bitcoins.

Quote

If I am right: Why do people use BTC mixer?

Privacy and convenience. Going through an altcoin, especially on a decentralized exchange, is much more work.

Quote

Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

It depends who you're trying to hide your transactions from. Or your balances. You don't want your local coffee shop to know you own a fortune in Bitcoin, and may not want them to know you gamble. If that's the reason, any exchange will suffice, even though chain analysis companies may still find the connection.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

I will never make this, because this would make my BTC suspect. And there is a risk to make my BTC's dirty.

Bitcoin do not have to depend on any other coin before you can have privacy while using it, you will need to use a mixer sometimes to maximize privacy.

According to Chainanalysis:

Quote from: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-mixers/#:~:text=Despite%20their%20use%20by%20criminals,explicitly%20illegal%20in%20most%20jurisdictions.

crypto mixers are not explicitly illegal in most jurisdictions.

ABCbits

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

When we change our BTC into another crypto and after change them back into BTC, I guess in this case it would no more be possible to trace back the origin of the origin BTC.
Am I right? Or do I miss anything?
Of course if we make the change on a CEX, it would be possible to trace back the origin, because the CEX will have a history-protocol. But I guess not, when we make this via DEX.

Aside from the fact some DEX is centralized, privacy/anonymity when using DEX also depends on how you use it. For example, interacting with DEX smart contract on ETH with lightweight wallet (such as Metamask) letting ETH node operator what you're doing.

Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

If I am right: Why do people use BTC mixer? Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

If the process use DEX, there are several limitation such as small trading volume, waiting other participant to initiate the trade or bad exchange rate.

mindrust

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Quote from: Mbidox on October 15, 2022, 05:56:28 AM

There are people that use Bitcoin mixer to cover the origin of there Bitcoins with a veil.

I will never make this, because this would make my BTC suspect. And there is a risk to make my BTC's dirty.

But here is my technical question:
When we change our BTC into another crypto and after change them back into BTC, I guess in this case it would no more be possible to trace back the origin of the origin BTC.
Am I right? Or do I miss anything?
Of course if we make the change on a CEX, it would be possible to trace back the origin, because the CEX will have a history-protocol. But I guess not, when we make this via DEX.

If I am right: Why do people use BTC mixer? Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

Would appreciate a competent answer. Thank you.

Then it would depend on the DeX you're using. DEX's are not always anonymous as well. If the DeX operates on a .com domain, your ISP still can track your activity and then you won't really be anonymous. Also the DeX you are using might collect/log your data without letting you know.

When you are on the internet it is pretty damn hard to stay anonymous. If you do some shady shit and the government decides to learn who you are, they will succeed it I can guarantee that.

Mbidox

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There are people that use Bitcoin mixer to cover the origin of there Bitcoins with a veil.

I will never make this, because this would make my BTC suspect. And there is a risk to make my BTC's dirty.

But here is my technical question:
When we change our BTC into another crypto and after change them back into BTC, I guess in this case it would no more be possible to trace back the origin of the origin BTC.
Am I right? Or do I miss anything?
Of course if we make the change on a CEX, it would be possible to trace back the origin, because the CEX will have a history-protocol. But I guess not, when we make this via DEX.

If I am right: Why do people use BTC mixer? Isn't changing BTC into another crypto and change them back, not the much better solution to cut off the trace?

Would appreciate a competent answer. Thank you.

Topic: BTC: cutting the trace - page 2. (Read 408 times)