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Topic: BTCjam - Any Thoughts or Experiances - page 13. (Read 57514 times)

full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
October 02, 2015, 01:24:35 PM

You might want to do some homework about how a company collects and the legal frameworks that need to be accomplished if you think this is an easy task. If it was easy, you'd see many companies doing this.

We are always looking into ways we can do this in the future. Not sure what you know about collections process but it is very difficult to do this as a company. There are many legal hurdles that we'd need to accomplish in order to do this and I'm not so sure we are going to be able to do this right now. Would we want to collect for you guys? Yes. Is it something that we think about and try to figure out? Yes. Is is something that gets done in a week? Sadly not.

If it's not easy for easy for you imagine how easy it is for your investors!

The way you are dodging your responsabilities is very disturbing.

You advise to invest small amounts into each loan and then you say you have nothing to do with collections.

So people from all over the world each with a $5 investment have to do all the work to make collections?


Basically what you saying here is that defaulting won't have any consequence at all.





Im not saying that at all, what we say is take the risk into the model when you invest because we calculate this and diversification is a good way to have positive returns given that we do this. There are people who use arbitration to go after borrowers with success and they usually buy up notes to do this providing other lenders with liquidity (even if it is at a fractional amount). It actually is easier for a lender to go after borrowers with these agreements then it is for a company to get aligned and formed properly to do this in house. Thats what I was saying.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
October 02, 2015, 01:20:25 PM
I think a lending website that works on the concept of trusting nobody except reputable escrows. The amount of borrowers of your website who are con artists is staggering. In addition, I think a social lending website should be able to develop a mechanism that enables the sale of ownership of debts. Any information would be provided and a good hacker/detective can probably recover a purchased debt. There is far too much leverage for borrowers on BTCJam.

Appreciate the feedback. We are working hard on getting great borrowers & I think over our growth we have made advancements here. Fraud rates are down which is good thing. As blockchain tools/services keep growing I think one day something you mentioned might be possible.
hero member
Activity: 519
Merit: 500
October 02, 2015, 05:23:01 AM

Why is autoinvest slower than manual investors?

I have a plan for A rating loans and it failed to invest here: https://btcjam.com/listings/51807-trading-platform-test-funds

It doesn't make any sense.
hero member
Activity: 519
Merit: 500
October 02, 2015, 05:17:06 AM

You might want to do some homework about how a company collects and the legal frameworks that need to be accomplished if you think this is an easy task. If it was easy, you'd see many companies doing this.

We are always looking into ways we can do this in the future. Not sure what you know about collections process but it is very difficult to do this as a company. There are many legal hurdles that we'd need to accomplish in order to do this and I'm not so sure we are going to be able to do this right now. Would we want to collect for you guys? Yes. Is it something that we think about and try to figure out? Yes. Is is something that gets done in a week? Sadly not.

If it's not easy for easy for you imagine how easy it is for your investors!

The way you are dodging your responsabilities is very disturbing.

You advise to invest small amounts into each loan and then you say you have nothing to do with collections.

So people from all over the world each with a $5 investment have to do all the work to make collections?


Basically what you saying here is that defaulting won't have any consequence at all.



hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
October 01, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
I dont get why you pissed will you be the part honest into btcjam or will run with money from others as most are doing there?Anyway good luck with your investment sponshorships.
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
October 01, 2015, 02:43:03 PM
Problem is now fixed and btcjam made a adjustment in payment day for the hours lost in paying interest for money you can't touch.

Thumbs up me happy again.
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
October 01, 2015, 11:07:44 AM
Hi

I can't withdraw my loan from btcjam it's "jammed"with a withdraw error.
they say they wil look into it but now i'm just paying intrest for money i can't use!

they are scamming the borrows first second.

So BTCjam how do you coup with these kind of business?
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
September 30, 2015, 07:22:32 PM
Btcjam allows some projects to get real with the support of unknow people,sure there is some honest people and some projects are great and worth the investment but the risk to support others projects is huge.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
September 30, 2015, 08:22:28 AM
Perfect example of support for BTCJam. I post about an issue I'm having that needs resolved, and they instead argue with a user on bitcointalk.

Great help you have been BTCJam! Have had my loan funded and available to withdraw for 8 days now, and can't get support to change my email address so I can do so.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
September 29, 2015, 04:14:31 PM
Btjam is just the way to scam who have some pennies and dont know what to do ,the interest atracts most and usually they get burned.Sure they made the reputation but well someone told me before some user of high reputation has scammed for 4 btc ,soo lend money to someone that you dont know without any protection is the same at go into the street and open the wallet take the money and say take it pay me when you can.No advice to use this or any other similiar project without some colateral option into lending.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
September 28, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
I think a lending website that works on the concept of trusting nobody except reputable escrows. The amount of borrowers of your website who are con artists is staggering. In addition, I think a social lending website should be able to develop a mechanism that enables the sale of ownership of debts. Any information would be provided and a good hacker/detective can probably recover a purchased debt. There is far too much leverage for borrowers on BTCJam.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 260
The Scamcoats are coming!
September 28, 2015, 05:04:59 PM
Well played, sir, Well played indeed.  Cool Thank you for kindly answering my questions, good sir. That is how a company is supposed to handle tough questions with tact.

I have seen BTCLend seemingly engage in the loan "rigging/preference" that I mentioned, as well as what is developing with Bitlend.io, which is looking shady as all get out now, and I was not expecting to see that at all.

P.S: For a textbook example of how not to handle Public Relations when trying to run a business based on trust, check out the Bitlend.io launch thread here. One of the principals of Bitlend.io, Jason Sponaugle (aka "masteryoshi" to the Paycoiners) created a new shill account named "simdude" and created the thread posing as a satisfied customer. Then Michael J. Koerner (Korfax) jumped in to tag team with the "satisfied customer" to generate some false confidence in Bitlend.  It went downhill pretty quickly after that genius level move and has since gone completely off a cliff Wile E. Coyote style. Cringe worthy. Now Bitlend has gone full radio silent and refuses to answer any questions at all. Amazing.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:55:45 PM
Fascinating read, old chap. Care to share any proof to back up what you are saying? And I don't mean an "Appeal to Authority" type of logical fallacy like saying you have bigshots behind you, therefore you are legitimate. Sorry, that is simply a non-starter.

Google us. That's usually a good start.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:55:12 PM
Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks

Has anyone done a count on what borrowers who have received what seem to be abnormally high credit ratings list as their need for the loan? Is there a pattern? Are there certain "investments" listed by borrowers that seem to result in them getting an abnormally high credit rating?

Credit ratings aren't determined by what a borrower wants or classifies his loan basis on solely.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:53:10 PM
Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

You are just fishing there.   The problem is simply once BTCjam collects their fees they don't really have any skin in the game.   That is bad for the the investors that have nothing but skin in the game.   Coupled with the fact that the advice pushed by BTCjam is just plain bad for investors and good for people trying to pull off scams.  

You can make BTC at their site, but it involves a lot of effort and time.  

You missed the entire point of that post, but then I would not expect anything else from you. Since you were incapable of figuring it out, the point is this: Is it possible that BTCjam is funneling loans into "operations" of which they operate/have a cut of/ receive a kickback from ? BTCLend seems to have done this in a HUGE way, and now the new Bitlend operation may be doing the same as well.

We arent a ponzi - I know you are doing your homework but if you search BTCjam on the internets you'll see a lot of publicly available information.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:51:14 PM
I am following these threads and I am confused I have lots of btc on this site, am I hearing that BTCjam is going to help us get our investments back?

No they don't give a shit, they got there Fee's already so why should they care?

The whole we got our fees thing is getting pretty old. As I mentioned a few times already, fees dont make this business sustainable alone. This whole idea is ridiculous.

Actually, no it's not. It's a very legitimate concern and will eventually come back to haunt you and your colleagues on your BS business practices.

The whole incentive structure at BTCJam is warped. Jam receives their fee once a loan is funded, paid for by the lenders.

BTCJam are not lenders. They provide a platform, and this fee is paid for by the lenders, not the borrowers. The way the fee structure is set up is such that Jam maximizes their profitability when borrowers have the most loans funded.  NOT when borrowers repay the loans. They have no interest in providing credible credit ratings, and to actually expend funds to do research to provide such ratings reduces BTCJam's profitability.

If you are a lender in BTCJam be well aware:

YOU ARE NOT OUTSOURCING ANY CREDIT RESEARCH OR RISK ASSESSMENT TO BTCJAM. THEIR FEE STRUCTURE IS SET UP SUCH THAT THEY GAIN THE MOST WHEN THE MOST LOANS ARE FUNDED. NOT WHEN LOANS ARE PAID OFF. THEY HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO GET AS MANY LOANS FUNDED AS POSSIBLE. TO ACTUALLY EXPEND RESOURCES TO PROVIDE ACCURATE CREDIT RATINGS OR SEE LOANS PAID OFF, LIKE ACTUAL LENDERS, REDUCES BTCJAM'S PROFITABILITY.

One day, someone smarter than you or myself is going to figure out a way to make this work, and they're going to put you and your ilk out on the fucking street.

EDIT TO ADD:

If you don't believe me, ask a BTCJam employee to enlighten you on how they apply credit ratings. See how far that question gets you.

Also, BTCSupport does not even attempt to dispute the claim from the poster who addressed such concerns. Maybe BTCSupport is right, the fee system does not make the business sustainable alone. But then, the question remains how do they make money or keep the business sustainable? They certainly do not profit from loans being paid off. Hmmm.


We currently approve under 10% of the listings sent to us daily. If we wanted to make money on fees, this is a good way to not accomplish that. I've given comment to this theory a few times and it goes like this...

1. Bad loans = investors losses.
2. investor losses = no investors
3. no investors = no marketplace
4. no marketplace = no company! no fees! no nothing!

If you read throughout this thread Ive actually answered this very claim time and time again and just did it again for you here ^^. It's not a way to build a great business and fees arent what make us a great company. Investor returns & quality borrowers are.

Money - we raised an A round in December. That usually helps!

How do we apply the credit ratings? We apply credit ratings in a lot of different ways. Because that is one of the coolest aspects of our company, Id rather not get into it. You dont see CocaCola and Pepsi swapping recipes publicly right?

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 260
The Scamcoats are coming!
September 28, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks

Has anyone done a count on what borrowers who have received what seem to be abnormally high credit ratings list as their need for the loan? Is there a pattern? Are there certain "investments" listed by borrowers that seem to result in them getting an abnormally high credit rating?
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
I am following these threads and I am confused I have lots of btc on this site, am I hearing that BTCjam is going to help us get our investments back?

No they don't give a shit, they got there Fee's already so why should they care?

The whole we got our fees thing is getting pretty old. As I mentioned a few times already, fees dont make this business sustainable alone. This whole idea is ridiculous.
actually you did not improve your System in the Past 6 Month. Examples wanted?

a) your Fee System is still ridic, you charge 5% for a Listing( it should be more 0.5%) and you are asking 5% for listing a Note (remember the Reason for Listing a Note is usaly that the Shit hits the Fan...)
b)Verify of Bank for non US Customer still not possible. (i mean how hard, can it to setup that?...)
c) the Reference System is a Joke, it should be much more influenced by the one who vouch for you, i mean 10 Facebook friend that give a reference for you, that mean nothing... someone who has a positive Rating in BTCjam or other lending site, that is a reference.

In general you are squezing the fruit, but there are very little improvements overall.

A) Most of the involvement in notes is actually those looking to liquidate their investment - meaning they are growing impatient (on an already current borrower aka is not late what so ever) and might want to get btc for other investments or need it elsewhere. Those notes move pretty quick in and out of the secondary marketplace so maybe you dont see them as much? 4% is the fee - but to answer your question we are thinking about changing that.

B) Have you ever looked into setting this up for a business worldwide? Im guessing the answer is no because their really arent many companies that service the world for this. There are about 2 and they arent that good... The answer is - yes it is very hard to set that up.

C) What you are referring to is ratings -- we have that for those who invested who want to rate a borrower/lender. So technically this is just another part separate from references.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Support for the global P2P lending platform:BTCJam
September 28, 2015, 04:32:04 PM
My issue is with your screening process on the borrowers you have listed for us. To me it appears if it is not just about collecting fees then your exposing us (the lenders) to these bad risks looks like you are not doing your do diligence.



The credit rating system over there is laughable. Case in point, take a look at this loan: https://btcjam.com/listings/49296-credit-card-debt---trusted-borrower-

A- Rating on the loan given by BTCJam let's go through the specifics:

late on 12 of 20 payments on loans prior
0 equity in the site - 100% debt, no investments in other listings
this loan is by a multiple larger than any of his previous loans
borrower takes out a loan for credit card debt but does not verify a credit card. hmm, i wonder why that would be?
borrower's prior loans are for repayment of student debt, fix transmission on a car, and security deposit on a rental unit.

think about that last item for a second. assuming he's telling the truth, we know:
1. he has additional debt on top of his monstrous credit card debt,
2. his car is a pos,
3. and he doesn't own real property.

what does that mean?

he's judgment proof. i.e. it means he's broke, he has no assets. so, in the event that he does likely default, and a borrower wishes to try and recoup, they'll get nowhere, because the guy, while he might not be a scammer, clearly does not have the means to pay these loans off. if it goes to court, there will likely be nothing to liquidate to pay off the loans because he owns no assets. thus, judgment proof. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

these are your A- listings at BTCJam folks.

so, if you're on the conservative auto invest, these are the types of loans that btcjam puts you in. loans that that no reputable financial agency or lender would consider "A-."

so what happens when btcjam negligently (although much more likely, recklessly, worst case, fraudulently) assigns these A- ratings to people who would otherwise get laughed out of a loan office or bank?

some poor sap, with no chance of ever seeing a dime of this money should this loan go into default, kicks the guy 18+BTC. don't get me wrong, i'm not about protecting people from themselves. and what is that about a fool and their money? my sympathy is muted. however, if jam is going to post these ratings, they owe it to the people who use the site to back these ratings with some sort of credible criteria. to echo the point above, it's like they're throwing darts at a wall, although cynics might think that they're purposefully pumping up these ratings to get people to invest because listings for borrowers has dropped off precipitously. clearly the 18+BTC sap was not expecting this payment to be late as evidenced by his numerous consecutive comments on the listing. maybe if jam had put some thought into their credit rating it could have given some users a second thought before investing so much, when they are clearly not in a position to invest such amounts in what in reality is a very risky loan to a very risky borrower. but as it stands, there is no counterbalance to some of these so called respected lenders who post crap on the site like they know a borrower is trustworthy because they spew BS about being late on payments better than some other late borrower.

bottom line, if for whatever reason, you do feel the need to invest in BTCJam, NEVER trust a rating on BTCJam. rating methodology has not been released and likely never will because, apparently, there is none. NEVER trust other investors who invest in these loans. they have just as much knowledge, and very possibly, less expertise than you, and the folks at jam, at assessing risk.

peace.

http://imgur.com/VwrOV6z

Where that data came from - https://btcjam.com/stats

Those are actual returns when following the credit ratings. We put a lot of thought into the credit rating, that is why the statistics speak for themselves. I don't know why anyone would make decisions based off other investors.

Every investor is different in the way they invest and their level of risk. I think its fair to say that every investor should do their own research. We never stated that you should follow the other investors on the site as many have different risk built into their strategy that wouldnt work for everyone. We also encourage diversification more so than throwing all your btc into one basket. I think you have a good idea of this given that you looked so hard into this borrower.

The reason AutoInvest exists is to throw very small amounts of BTC into very many listings, a set it and forget it approach for using the site. It's a good way to diversify across the marketplace at very small increments with loss/risk already built in.
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