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Topic: [BTCT][BFMINES] - Mining Contracts Now Available - Bonus Divs First Months - page 3. (Read 26395 times)

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
4. BFMines guarantees no bad luck in mining. If the variance of luck is 10% and only good luck counts, BFMines adds an additional 2.5% on average. If you feel lucky, that may be higher. However, bad luck would be taken from the above excess capacity, so I'm not adding that to the 'idle speculation', even though good luck would be paid out.

None of these things are part of the contract and cannot be at this stage. They are in no way guaranteed and may not even be likely. However, I'm somewhat confident that these factors are part of what people evaluate when they look at BFMines compared to straight-forward PMBs. I discourage this; it is very likely that these numbers won't be real. We're not guaranteed more than 120ghs from Metabank; we have no idea whether Bitcoin will rise again; we do not know whether even a cent of excess capacity can be paid out after hardware risk.

.b

This is where there's still a problem.

On the one hand you say "BFMines guarantees no bad luck in mining."
Then immeidately after you say "None of these things are part of the contract and cannot be at this stage. They are in no way guaranteed"

Guarantee should mean the same thing in both places.  Is no bad luck guaranteed or not?

I read it as an unfortunate misuse of guarantee in the first instance where it really should have said "BFMines intends not to pass bad luck on to investors but can't guarantee it."

Ah, I see.

No bad luck is guaranteed. Whether that actually means anything and of so how much is not guaranteed. IE I cannot guarantee that the protection against bad luck means you get a 2.5% increase. I cannot guarantee that transaction fees go up to 10%.

That's what I meant by 'not guaranteed'. I guarantee that you get transaction fees and no bad luck, not how much that will increase the output.

I believe it's bad form in general to try to promote a security on the basis of benefits which investors have no contractual obligation to.  Investors should not be put in the position of needing to rely on an issuer delivering more than they're contractually obliged to.  I appreciate you hope or intend to put such commitments in the contract - but investors would definitely be advised to wait until they're actually in before investing (unless they're happy with what they'd get without them).

I agree, which is why I don't :-)

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
4. BFMines guarantees no bad luck in mining. If the variance of luck is 10% and only good luck counts, BFMines adds an additional 2.5% on average. If you feel lucky, that may be higher. However, bad luck would be taken from the above excess capacity, so I'm not adding that to the 'idle speculation', even though good luck would be paid out.

None of these things are part of the contract and cannot be at this stage. They are in no way guaranteed and may not even be likely. However, I'm somewhat confident that these factors are part of what people evaluate when they look at BFMines compared to straight-forward PMBs. I discourage this; it is very likely that these numbers won't be real. We're not guaranteed more than 120ghs from Metabank; we have no idea whether Bitcoin will rise again; we do not know whether even a cent of excess capacity can be paid out after hardware risk.

.b

This is where there's still a problem.

On the one hand you say "BFMines guarantees no bad luck in mining."
Then immeidately after you say "None of these things are part of the contract and cannot be at this stage. They are in no way guaranteed"

Guarantee should mean the same thing in both places.  Is no bad luck guaranteed or not?

I read it as an unfortunate misuse of guarantee in the first instance where it really should have said "BFMines intends not to pass bad luck on to investors but can't guarantee it."

I believe it's bad form in general to try to promote a security on the basis of benefits which investors have no contractual obligation to.  Investors should not be put in the position of needing to rely on an issuer delivering more than they're contractually obliged to.  I appreciate you hope or intend to put such commitments in the contract - but investors would definitely be advised to wait until they're actually in before investing (unless they're happy with what they'd get without them).
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
but the restructuring away from the bond thing changes all of that I assume?

There isn't really a restructuring, more a clarification. It has always been the intention (although that's difficulty to prove, as with any intention) to provide the changes I'm going to publish, but like I've responded to Deprived, I was more concerned with protecting contract holders than to open up for any improvements. I don't want to open up for speculation about the 'real' content of the contract by leaving in details that are not clearly defined, so I left in only things that were absolutely certain and left little room for ambiguity.

The result is that the contract really locked me in and prevents me from adding benefits like the announced guarantee with the potential upside of luck and transaction fees. It is actually in the contract already, but not clearly defined. 100% of 1mhs of mining is saying this, but apparently, a lot of people interpret this as 100% of the DMS.Mining and TAT.VM formula, which is clearly wrong if you just read what's said.

As for future improvements, I've already mentioned why I can't be clear on some of these aspects. Some factors simply cannot be determined until we've gotten the hardware up and running and have seen it in operation over some time.

I hate to open up the floor for speculation, but I've also said that I do not expect to get any benefits from the operation outside what other contract holders get. That is why my announcement about buying contracts myself meant something. I get only what everyone else gets after the IPO.

Let me give you an example. If I get no further benefits, that means any surplus capacity will go to the benefit of contract holders. I can't say what this will mean yet because I don't know the extent of the surplus, but lets say that, as a silly example, the surplus revenue goes towards investing in new hardware to increase hash power. This is a silly example because it would require a complete rewrite of the contract as contract holders would then be equity holders too. The contract change prevents such changes, at least unilaterally, because it would add extra risk.

If this was announced, however, speculators would immediately start to plan for increased hashrate, but because we don't know the operational costs exactly yet (I'm estimating 5%) nor the stability of the hardware (which can require all the remaining excess capacity to account for risk) we won't know how much.

If I announced that the excess capacity would be paid out once a month, for example (save a reasonable and responsible buffer for risk) it would have the same effect; expectations that possibly cannot be met, and disappointment in case of no additional output. It would also complicate things with reporting. I did leave an opening for such an option, though, but clearly stated that such additional payouts should not be expected.

I'm trying my best to avoid idle speculation and building up expectations that may leave people disappointed. That's why I'm comparing BFMines to 'plain' PMBs with none of the other benefits. That brings the competition into a better light and means that BFMines may look 'worse' when comparing price alone. I'm fine with sticking with this because it means I don't disappoint people when I give them exactly what they expect.

However, if you really want to take the gloves off and speculate, here are some additional factors:

1. BFMines pays transaction fees. These must go up for Bitcoin to succeed. Friedcat estimates up to 100%. Even if it's just 10%, BFMines effectively pays 1.1mhs when compared to PMBs.
2. BFMines has 15-20% minimum excess capacity that will be to the benefit of contract holders (explicitly used to secure the stability and operation). If the hardware is stable, that excess capacity can be used to add additional output, bringing BFMines up to 1.265 mhs.
3. All ASIC hardware has vastly overperformed their specs. If Metabank hardware overperforms by 20%, the excess capacity reaches 34-39%, which, if paid out, brings BFMines up to 1.529mhs.
4. BFMines guarantees no bad luck in mining. If the variance of luck is 10% and only good luck counts, BFMines adds an additional 2.5% on average. If you feel lucky, that may be higher. However, bad luck would be taken from the above excess capacity, so I'm not adding that to the 'idle speculation', even though good luck would be paid out.

None of these things are part of the contract and cannot be at this stage. They are in no way guaranteed and may not even be likely. However, I'm somewhat confident that these factors are part of what people evaluate when they look at BFMines compared to straight-forward PMBs. I discourage this; it is very likely that these numbers won't be real. We're not guaranteed more than 120ghs from Metabank; we have no idea whether Bitcoin will rise again; we do not know whether even a cent of excess capacity can be paid out after hardware risk.

.b
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
How the asset is backed isn't really relevant to what contract holders get. I could be growing pot in my back yard to get funds for all the contract is concerned (sans the transaction fees and luck, of course).

I included the backing as part of the contract as an added insurance to contract holders that I have taken steps to ensure an operating margin so that there won't be any nasty surprises. Like I said, I designed this with the attitude of protecting contract holders.

I'm surprised you don't ask what happens to the surplus funds if or when the contracts terminate, however. To be pro-active, I'll answer it in any case and say that I don't want to discuss the details of that at this point.

I didn't ask because it's already implicit in the contract that you get any surplus.  That's because, as you noted, above all investors are entitled to is the output of 1 MH/s.  Any payment above that (other, debatably, than the surplus for first 6 months) is effectively a gift from you to which they have no entitlement and in respect of which they should have no expectation.

Actually, this isn't implied, or at least shouldn't be. I've said this before; I do not expect any benefit that other contract holders get. I get my reward from the IPO, after that, I'm a contract holder like everyone else.

I'll elaborate a bit more on this in a response later.

I'd recommend investors vote YES to the change btw - now it's quoted and can't be changed.  There's a VERY significant benefit to them that hasn't been mentioned at all (and is pretty subtle).  As undoing it would very definitely be against the interest of investors that can't be done unilaterally.

I'm happy you approve. That really means a lot.

.b
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
just curious, can someone explain the lack of capital inflows into this fund?

it will currently cost around 250 btc to fund this.

people pay more than that for preorders, although for more megahashes

but the restructuring away from the bond thing changes all of that I assume?

Very simply. With expected difficulty increases through the remainder of July, August and part of September, this asset is not competitively priced with the best priced assets available.

As an example, DMS.MINING shares, which each represent 5MH, are selling for 0.016499 btc or 0.0032998 per MH. DMS.MINING is also paying daily divs TODAY. So DMS is selling for less and you will get at least six weeks of additional dividends before the expected date of hardware release for this asset.

Also, these types of assets aren't as popular as they once were.

TBH, I have no idea how any shares were sold considering the situation.

-helixone

MINING is taking a beating today (finally) due to the difficulty increase yesterday.

I believe that BFMINES' market value is going to tank pretty soon due to the fact that no one wants to pay .04/MH/S anymore; TAT.VM is about to break that mark and once it starts slipping under, you can bet that those 'investors' holding those 33K BFMINES shares are going to start dumping some. Also, it's a pretty shallow BID pool, so it wouldn't take much of a sell off to get pretty low pretty quickly.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
Very simply. With expected difficulty increases through the remainder of July, August and part of September, this asset is not competitively priced with the best priced assets available.

As an example, DMS.MINING shares, which each represent 5MH, are selling for 0.016499 btc or 0.0032998 per MH. DMS.MINING is also paying daily divs TODAY. So DMS is selling for less and you will get at least six weeks of additional dividends before the expected date of hardware release for this asset.

Also, these types of assets aren't as popular as they once were.

TBH, I have no idea how any shares were sold considering the situation.

-helixone

It's strange that you still haven't been unable to understand this asset, the information I've provded, or the comparisons given, but hey, I can't force you to understand.

.b
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
just curious, can someone explain the lack of capital inflows into this fund?

it will currently cost around 250 btc to fund this.

people pay more than that for preorders, although for more megahashes

but the restructuring away from the bond thing changes all of that I assume?

Very simply. With expected difficulty increases through the remainder of July, August and part of September, this asset is not competitively priced with the best priced assets available.

As an example, DMS.MINING shares, which each represent 5MH, are selling for 0.016499 btc or 0.0032998 per MH. DMS.MINING is also paying daily divs TODAY. So DMS is selling for less and you will get at least six weeks of additional dividends before the expected date of hardware release for this asset.

Also, these types of assets aren't as popular as they once were.

TBH, I have no idea how any shares were sold considering the situation.

-helixone
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
just curious, can someone explain the lack of capital inflows into this fund?

it will currently cost around 250 btc to fund this.

people pay more than that for preorders, although for more megahashes

but the restructuring away from the bond thing changes all of that I assume?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
How the asset is backed isn't really relevant to what contract holders get. I could be growing pot in my back yard to get funds for all the contract is concerned (sans the transaction fees and luck, of course).

I included the backing as part of the contract as an added insurance to contract holders that I have taken steps to ensure an operating margin so that there won't be any nasty surprises. Like I said, I designed this with the attitude of protecting contract holders.

I'm surprised you don't ask what happens to the surplus funds if or when the contracts terminate, however. To be pro-active, I'll answer it in any case and say that I don't want to discuss the details of that at this point.

I didn't ask because it's already implicit in the contract that you get any surplus.  That's because, as you noted, above all investors are entitled to is the output of 1 MH/s.  Any payment above that (other, debatably, than the surplus for first 6 months) is effectively a gift from you to which they have no entitlement and in respect of which they should have no expectation.

I'd recommend investors vote YES to the change btw - now it's quoted and can't be changed.  There's a VERY significant benefit to them that hasn't been mentioned at all (and is pretty subtle).  As undoing it would very definitely be against the interest of investors that can't be done unilaterally.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
That's a lot of waffle to totally miss the point.

Either the changes DO alter what investors get or they don't.

They don't. The contract states (and will state, barring undeniably beneficial updates) that investors get the mining output from 1mhs of Bitcoin mining power.

If you're saying they get extra but it doesn't come from you then where is it coming from?  Or was there some cash that would be sent to a null address in the old contract?  The surplus is used to cover costs that YOU have responsibility for - so anything coming from that IS coming from you indirectly (as YOU have to cover the costs - so if less gos to that from the surplus then more has to go to it from you).

How the asset is backed isn't really relevant to what contract holders get. I could be growing pot in my back yard to get funds for all the contract is concerned (sans the transaction fees and luck, of course).

I included the backing as part of the contract as an added insurance to contract holders that I have taken steps to ensure an operating margin so that there won't be any nasty surprises. Like I said, I designed this with the attitude of protecting contract holders.

I'm surprised you don't ask what happens to the surplus funds if or when the contracts terminate, however. To be pro-active, I'll answer it in any case and say that I don't want to discuss the details of that at this point.

And it isn't legitimate to have a motion where the content of the motion is hosted elsewhere and so able to be amended during or even after the vote.  The contract to be voted on should be posted in the motion OR cryptographically signed and the hash posted in the motion.

Agreed, I'll post the proposed changes here, and ask someone to quote it for reference. I realize that because this is a self-moderated topic, I can delete those quotes, so feel free to post the quote below in other threads or elsewhere for the record if someone feels that is required.

The proposed new contract is as such (I'll remove the note on rebranding and the stricken out use of PMB from the BTCT contract if approved).
 
Quote

Contract


Overview
 
BFMines is a perpetual mining bond (PMB) mining contract backed by physical hardware. The contract pays a dividend equivalent to 1 megahashes per second (mh/s) of mining power.
 
Note: The initial term used for this type of asset was perpetual mining bond, but as the term is somewhat misleading, I have rebranded it as a mining contract.
 
Please read the following article to understand what mining contracts are:
 
http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/
 
In summary, however, please note the following:
 1.This is a mining contract, not a share in a company. You receive no voting rights and no other income than the stated dividend.
 2.The mining contract is perpetual, which means it will continue to generate dividend until terminated following one of the below conditions. There is no defined termination date of the contract.
 3.The mining contract pays the equivalent of income from 1 mh/s. Any excess payments not explicitly stated in this contract is solely at the discretion of the operator and should not be expected.
 
A total of 100,000 contracts will be issued backed by no less than 120 GH/s of mining power. The excess mining power will be held in reserve to account for operational cost, hardware failure, or other problems. Revenue from the excess mining power will not be paid out to contract holders.
 
Each contract pays exactly 100% of 1mh/s of BTC mining power. All expenses related to the operation will be carried by the operator.
 
Changes to Contract
 
This contract may be updated at any time by the operator if it is to the reasonably undeniable benefit or of no consequence to contract holders. Changes that do not work in favor of existing contracts may be implemented only if the changes are accompanied by an offer to buy back contracts at the terms specified in this contract.
 
Operation and Buyback
 
The mine will operate perpetually and pay daily dividends, to be scheduled at or around the time of difficulty changes.
 
The term perpetual is unlikely for practical reasons, and as such, there exists provisions to close the contracts for one of the following reasons:
 1.The operator becomes incapable of operating the contracts over an extended period
 2.The overhead of operating the contracts becomes greater than its profits
 3.Permanent and irreparable damage to hardware
 4.The operator must close the contract for other reasons
 
If the contract must close for any of the above reasons, the operator or a duly appointed representative, in case the operator is permanently unavailable, can buy back contracts at no less than 110% of the average trading price at BTCT over the previous 7 (seven) days.
 
Please note that this buy-back is a right of the operator, not a duty. Any buy-back is solely at the discretion of the operator.
 
In any case of permanent and irreparable damage to hardware, the operator will pursue any means available to replace hardware as quickly as possible at no cost to contract holders. However, if replacement hardware cannot be obtained at reasonable costs, the operator may choose to suspend operation and dividends and start liquidation of the contract as explained above.
 
Pre-Release Terms:
 
Please note that these terms apply only until the mining hardware has been delivered. Upon delivery, these terms will be removed from the contract.

The contracts are backed by miners that have yet to be released. The scheduled release is September 2013.
 
All funds received as part of the IPO process at BTC Trading Corporation (BTCT) will be held in escrow until said mining hardware is delivered and made operational (the release date). In case the mining hardware fails completely, all funds will be repaid fully at the listing price of 0.004BTC/bond.
 
No dividends will be paid until delivery. On the release date, the IPO funds will be released from escrow.
 
Upon delivery, any excess capacity from the mining hardware will be used to pay contract holders additional dividends for six months. The additional dividends is intended to compensate contract holders for not receiving dividends until the mining hardware has been delivered.
 
Expansion of Operation
 
This contract will always be backed by real mining hardware or equivalent mining assets. In case of expansion of the contracts, those contracts will be offered at a rate not lower than the lowest trading price at BTCT over the previous 30 days. Any expansion will be backed by mining hardware or mining assets.
 
Caveats
 
Please be aware of the following before investing:
 
A mining contract decreases in value as Bitcoin mining difficulty climbs. The biggest return on investment will happen early in the contract’s existence and gradually decline as the Bitcoin mining climbs.
 
Mining contracts are not shares, they are effectively contracts where the mining operator mines bitcoin on your behalf, to be rewarded in dividends based on mining power. The price paid for a mining contract will under normal circumstances not be repaid so your sole income will be from the dividend paid daily.
 
Due to the buy-back clause of this contract, please be careful of paying too much for this mining contract, especially when there are sudden price spikes. The operator may choose to buy back contracts at 110% of trading price so if you pay more than this, you may theoretically lose anything you pay above that.
 
Pre-release only (will be removed once mining hardware is operational): This contract does not pay dividends until the release date. To compensate for this, the first six months of operation will give approximately 20% higher dividends depending on the final performance of the miner. In case the hardware fails completely, the contracts will be repaid for 0.004BTC per bond.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
More specifically, your hardware will generate some number of coins over its lifetime.  Some portion of those will go to your investors - and the rest to you.  It's therefore the case that any change in what investors will receive is going to have an opposite impact on what you receive (this is obviously a simplification).  It's thus impossible for you make decisions on their behalf - as you have an explicit conflict of interest.  That's why contracts for bonds/contracts should (in general) never be allowed to be changed other than unanimously as there's no shared interest between the issuer and the counter-parties.

Now there ARE exceptions to the above - areas where the amount to be shared out can potentially be increased for example.  The contract shouldn't be covering those areas in the first place - so, for example, your contract (rightly) doesn't define which pools you'll mine on as there IS a shared interest there for you pick whichever gives the most income.  In general anything which changes the basis on which payments to investors is calculated will have a conflict of interest - where it would be entirely inappropriate for unilateral changes to be allowed.

Actually, this is not quite the case with BFMines. All revenue from the mining operation goes to the benefit of contract holders. I get nothing, except from the proceeds of the contracts I hold myself (and like previously disclosed, I do hold contracts).

The surplus of the mining (the 15-20%) does not go to me, but is used to cover expenses, provide repairs or replacement hardware if required, cover unforeseen events, downtime, and so on.

I do not use this surplus to pay for backup hardware. I pay for that from my own funds and while that hardware is mining, I get the proceeds from that. Because I bear the responsibility of downtime with BFMines, however, it is in my best interest to use my own hardware as backup in case of prolonged downtime or catastrophic failure (until contracts can be repurchased).

If using my backup hardware is required, I intend to charge the cost of that (ie loss to my personal income) to the funds accrued from the excess capacity in BFMines, but beyond that, I get no other benefits than other contract holders have.

That's a lot of waffle to totally miss the point.

Either the changes DO alter what investors get or they don't.

If you're saying they get extra but it doesn't come from you then where is it coming from?  Or was there some cash that would be sent to a null address in the old contract?  The surplus is used to cover costs that YOU have responsibility for - so anything coming from that IS coming from you indirectly (as YOU have to cover the costs - so if less gos to that from the surplus then more has to go to it from you).

And it isn't legitimate to have a motion where the content of the motion is hosted elsewhere and so able to be amended during or even after the vote.  The contract to be voted on should be posted in the motion OR cryptographically signed and the hash posted in the motion.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
More specifically, your hardware will generate some number of coins over its lifetime.  Some portion of those will go to your investors - and the rest to you.  It's therefore the case that any change in what investors will receive is going to have an opposite impact on what you receive (this is obviously a simplification).  It's thus impossible for you make decisions on their behalf - as you have an explicit conflict of interest.  That's why contracts for bonds/contracts should (in general) never be allowed to be changed other than unanimously as there's no shared interest between the issuer and the counter-parties.

Now there ARE exceptions to the above - areas where the amount to be shared out can potentially be increased for example.  The contract shouldn't be covering those areas in the first place - so, for example, your contract (rightly) doesn't define which pools you'll mine on as there IS a shared interest there for you pick whichever gives the most income.  In general anything which changes the basis on which payments to investors is calculated will have a conflict of interest - where it would be entirely inappropriate for unilateral changes to be allowed.

Actually, this is not quite the case with BFMines. All revenue from the mining operation goes to the benefit of contract holders. I get nothing, except from the proceeds of the contracts I hold myself (and like previously disclosed, I do hold contracts).

The surplus of the mining (the 15-20%) does not go to me, but is used to cover expenses, provide repairs or replacement hardware if required, cover unforeseen events, downtime, and so on.

I do not use this surplus to pay for backup hardware. I pay for that from my own funds and while that hardware is mining, I get the proceeds from that. Because I bear the responsibility of downtime with BFMines, however, it is in my best interest to use my own hardware as backup in case of prolonged downtime or catastrophic failure (until contracts can be repurchased).

If using my backup hardware is required, I intend to charge the cost of that (ie loss to my personal income) to the funds accrued from the excess capacity in BFMines, but beyond that, I get no other benefits than other contract holders have.

The net effect is that BFMines has 1.2mhs of power per contract, but that only 1.0 is paid out as dividends. I considered including this model in the original design, but it would complicate decision making and the 'cleanliness' of having just a contract for a certain hash rate so I opted to use the output of a fixed amount of hash instead.

FWIW your clarification of how you intended to change from a PMB to a contract (where you guaranteed PMB minimum payments) definitely IS a change in favour of investors.  But why are you having the vote before you've finalised the new contract?  Get it all done at once THEN have the vote.

The contract changes I'm putting to the vote now is the finalized contract to the extent possible. I don't know the details required to include all the planned changes. The changes I've described so far, however, are not the only ones on the schedule, so I'm clarifying my intent on how to handle those changes rather than wait for all details to be clear (which could take months, for reasons that will also become clear).

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
[Reasonable is a fairly well-understood term and is perfectly usable in legal contracts. The term "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an example of this. It will not be unilaterally determined by me as I can be very unreasonable at time. That is why the intent is to publish changes well in advance.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of "reasonable" - nor did I claim there was.  What was missing (and remains so) is the second part necessary - the definition of who determines whether it is reasonable.

Publishing well in advance still doesn't define who determines whether something is reasonable - nor do the examples you presented.  Specific examples are of no use when trying to define a general process.

You'd probably agree with me that 1+1=2 is true.
You'd likely also agree that 1+1=3 is NOT true.

That, however, gets us nowhere nearer to defining how resolution of whether any statement in general were true would be achieved.  If there's some logcially robust system for determining whether a change  could be reasonably considered in the interest of investors then please reference it as being the basis on which that will be determined.

What you're maybe missing here is the fundamental difference in nature between stocks and bonds/contracts.  With stocks it is usually the case that the interests of managers and investors are generally in agreement - tha the company do well and is profitable.  Bonds and contracts are a very different beast - being an exchange of commitments - where any change in the interest of one party will frequently be to the detriment of the other.  With stocks the shared intent is, in general, to increase the size of a pool of assets/revenue streams  to which all parties have some entitlement or interest.  With bonds/contracts there's no such common interest - rather all changes will increase or decrease one party's obligation the other which is almost inevitably favourable for one party and unfavourable for the other.

More specifically, your hardware will generate some number of coins over its lifetime.  Some portion of those will go to your investors - and the rest to you.  It's therefore the case that any change in what investors will receive is going to have an opposite impact on what you receive (this is obviously a simplification).  It's thus impossible for you make decisions on their behalf - as you have an explicit conflict of interest.  That's why contracts for bonds/contracts should (in general) never be allowed to be changed other than unanimously as there's no shared interest between the issuer and the counter-parties.

Now there ARE exceptions to the above - areas where the amount to be shared out can potentially be increased for example.  The contract shouldn't be covering those areas in the first place - so, for example, your contract (rightly) doesn't define which pools you'll mine on as there IS a shared interest there for you pick whichever gives the most income.  In general anything which changes the basis on which payments to investors is calculated will have a conflict of interest - where it would be entirely inappropriate for unilateral changes to be allowed.

FWIW your clarification of how you intended to change from a PMB to a contract (where you guaranteed PMB minimum payments) definitely IS a change in favour of investors.  But why are you having the vote before you've finalised the new contract?  Get it all done at once THEN have the vote.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
First there's the weasel words of "the reasonably perceived benefit of contract holders".  Reasonably perceived by whom?  If by contract holders then why are you trying to allow it unilaterally - when there's voting system that allows factual determination of what the perception of contract holders is.  If you mean "reasonably perceived" by yourself then it's meaningless - as it gives you free reign to do anything you want so long as you claim it's "reasonably perceived" by yourself.

Reasonable is a fairly well-understood term and is perfectly usable in legal contracts. The term "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an example of this. It will not be unilaterally determined by me as I can be very unreasonable at time. That is why the intent is to publish changes well in advance.

An example of an unreasonable objection may be that "I don't want these changes because I don't like the color of your car". This is clearly unreasonable because the color of my car is not in any way related to the operation of the contract.

An example of a resonable objection may be that "I don't want these changes because I think difficulty will drop by 50%". This is reasonable because, although someone may disagree or agree with the prediction, it is a reason that would affect the operation of the contract.

In any event, any change that tries to make the bonds/contracts into some kind of communal ownership asset - where some holders can vote to change the rights of others - should NOT be allowed for anything claimed to be a bond.  It removes the certainty of expectation that holding a bond should deliver.

This is one reason why the rebranding is required; this is not a bond, it is a mining contract. I'd be happy to treat it as a bond like the original contract stated, but this will effectively remove benefits from contract holders, and I'll elaborate more on this in a moment.

The second part appears to be attempting to remove your obligation to pay the equivalent of 1 MH/s of mining output and instead replace it with the actual output of your hardware.  That removes all guarantee of payment - and changes the entire nature of payouts from being PMB-like to be equivalent to owning shares : just with a much larger management cut than things openly admitting to be shares charge.

A 1.1% transaction fee bonus in no way compensates for stales, orphans, loss of net connection, equipment breakdown etc.

It does not. That is the purpose of the excess capacity, as stated in the contract. However, the excess capacity will not be paid out so it will only benefit contract holders as an added insurance.

However, let's again as an extreme example say that friedcat's predictions of a 100% transaction fee by 2016 comes true. This will effectively double the output of the contracts, and that will be paid out to contract holders.

Even in your article you appear confused over this yourself - on the one hand saying invnestors get what's mined and on the other saying (in big type) :

"Note: During the first six months, while the hardware is still under warranty, the surplus mining power  in BFMines is paid out as a bonus to contract holders, meaning that for half a year, contract holders get more dividends than guaranteed."

What's guaranteed if it becomes a contract?  What is the absolute minimum investors will get paid per dividend?  There isn't one.

This is actually one of those planned changes, and because this is not now (edit: spelling) a public forum, I'll reveal the details of that particular upcoming change. I eluded to this in the article, but I'd like to iron out the final details before I include it in the contract.

Please note that the following is a preliminary change and will not be worded this way in the final contract.

Unlike PMBs, mining contracts guarantee the output of a certain hash rate from actual mining. This means that in theory, that mining output may be zero (and in theory can be any remaining block reward forever).

Due to this variance in output, contract holders would normally have an unpredictable output that may very well be below expectations. It will also introduce significant overhead to the operation and dividends must be paid daily and cannot be scheduled. Dividends must also be paid out after the mining occurs, although this is a minor effect as the total impact would be the interest of one day with a daily dividend payout.

To ensure a stable output, BFMines will pre-schedule daily dividends on the basis of an average output using the expected dividends (likely using the DMS.Mining and TAT.VM formulas as they seem to be the commonly accepted standards).

Then, on a weekly basis, surplus dividends from lucky streaks and transaction fees will be paid out.

However, under no circumstance will that additional dividend be negative or affect future dividends payments. In other words, like the PMB style of the original contract, there is an absolute guarantee of the expected output from 1mhs. If the real output is lower, that will be covered by the operator.

This change benefits contract holders beyond a resonable doubt (in my opinion) as such:

  • It guarantees a mining payout equivalent to a PMB
  • It offers contract holders the upside of good luck
  • It offers protection against bad luck
  • It offers an additional payout of transaction fees once per week


The third change is the worst of the lot - it would be fine with one change.

As your proposal stands, if the original hardware doesn't show up you could then order from someone else - and evenn if it didn't arrive for another year investors would be locked in at the same price and receive minimal return when hardware finally arrived.  If you want the flexibility to use other hardware then a fair change would be to allow other hardware to back the bonds/contracts so long as it was operational by the end of September (the originally defined target time-scale).  That removes the loophole in your proposed change where you can keep changing proposed hardware sources until either hardware prices are tiny OR market price is so low you can just buy back per the contract and pocket a fat profit without ever having mined anything.

That is also one of the proposed changes that would be added, but for which the details are not defined.

I am working under the assumption that contract holders would benefit from starting mining as soon as possible. I realize this is not absolutely true in all cases; some are just speculating.

Right now, I'm in the process of securing hash power from additional sources to serve as backup power for BFMines. However, the way the contract is formulated, hashing will not commence until Metabank delivers. That means that (although in theory) the backup power can be available tomorrow, it would just sit idle for months if Metabank is delayed.

There is no clause that says a specific date for when the IPO funds would be returned if hardware does not arrive, which is really another oversight. If I were dishonest, I could hide behind this oversight forever with the current terms, and this would go against the best interest of contract holders as well as my intent.

As such, I've proposed to remove the named hardware and when details about hardware delivery are more firm (whether from the backup sources or Metabank) a fixed date will be added, at which either mining commences or IPO funds are returned.

However, because I do not yet know the details of when neither Metabank or the backups arrive, I cannot yet fix this date, so I'm not including that change in this proposal. I'm keeping everyone, contract holders or others, up-to-date on every development I learn, positive or negative, so the moment I know, I will reveal this information.

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
When you enter a contract with someone NEITHER party has the right to unilaterally change the contract.  These aren't shares in a company - where there's shared ownership - they're contracts/bonds.  Removal of voting rights only means investors have no say in actions you're allowed to do WITHIN the contract - it in no way, shape or form, allows you alter the contract itself.

You're right, that was badly worded by me.

The contract changes will be done to include the ability to unilaterally change the contract, but also to ensure that contract owners that do not approve of these changes will be given a contractual right to a buy-back. I should have included this in the initial contract, which was an oversight on my end in the heat of battle. I was more concerned with protecting contract holders against bad events than opening for the chance of good events.

The planned changes are to the benefit of contract holders only and will be published in advance with due notice. I intend to give contract owners a chance to sell back contracts if they strongly disagree that the changes are in favor of them. I wish to be very relaxed on execution of this policy, but included the phrase 'resonable' to avoid exploitation.

However, the way the contract is formulated now, there is no chance for me to improve the terms. For the sake of an extreme example, if we suddenly got 1000 Metabank miners instead of one as a nice gesture from Metabank, that would be great and I'd love to improve the hash rate of the contracts, but right now I cannot.

Another example (not planned, just an example) of a change that would not be clearly in favor of contract holders would be to permanently include the excess hashing power in dividends. This would give contract holders better dividends, but because this also introduces more risk of loss due to hardware failure, it is not completely and undeniably a benefit and would thus be implemented only combined with an offer to buy back contracts from those that wish.

.b

Part of the problem - which you detailed above - is that historically contracts on BTC-TC and Bitfunder have always tended to include a lot of operational stuff that really shouldn't be in the contract at all.  So in practice what ends up in the "contract" section tends to include things that are a contract (and thus totally unchangable) and other things which are operational issues - that should be able to be modified either following a vote OR unilaterally.  The problem then, of course, is determining which is which.

I messed up on that score myself with LTC-ATF (though not too badly) and included in the contract things which shouldn't have been there (at that time when issuing securities there weren't all the other sections that now exist).  As a result whenever I make changes to that contract now I don't vote myself until others have voted - and will vote against if any significant opposition (10% or more).  I also offer a buy-back at MORE than would be paid were the closure clause to be executed (with the surplus over NAV/U paid by myself).

That's on a fund - which should have more room for manouver than a bond or contract.  Bonds and contracts should be got right first time - there's no real scope for changing them once started as they're by nature individual rather than collective and debt/obligation rather than equity.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
When you enter a contract with someone NEITHER party has the right to unilaterally change the contract.  These aren't shares in a company - where there's shared ownership - they're contracts/bonds.  Removal of voting rights only means investors have no say in actions you're allowed to do WITHIN the contract - it in no way, shape or form, allows you alter the contract itself.

You're right, that was badly worded by me.

The contract changes will be done to include the ability to unilaterally change the contract, but also to ensure that contract owners that do not approve of these changes will be given a contractual right to a buy-back. I should have included this in the initial contract, which was an oversight on my end in the heat of battle. I was more concerned with protecting contract holders against bad events than opening for the chance of good events.

The planned changes are to the benefit of contract holders only and will be published in advance with due notice. I intend to give contract owners a chance to sell back contracts if they strongly disagree that the changes are in favor of them. I wish to be very relaxed on execution of this policy, but included the phrase 'resonable' to avoid exploitation.

However, the way the contract is formulated now, there is no chance for me to improve the terms. For the sake of an extreme example, if we suddenly got 1000 Metabank miners instead of one as a nice gesture from Metabank, that would be great and I'd love to improve the hash rate of the contracts, but right now I cannot.

Another example (not planned, just an example) of a change that would not be clearly in favor of contract holders would be to permanently include the excess hashing power in dividends. This would give contract holders better dividends, but because this also introduces more risk of loss due to hardware failure, it is not completely and undeniably a benefit and would thus be implemented only combined with an offer to buy back contracts from those that wish.

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
In summary, the changes are the following:
  • New Clause for Further Changes
    I'm introducing a new clause for implementing contract changes in the future. The clause will allow me to change the contract unilaterally only if those changes are to the reasonably perceived benefit of contract holders or are of no consequence (such as a name change, spelling corrections, and so on). If changes are required that are not to the benefit of contract holders, changes must be accompanied by an offer of a buy-back as per the terms in the contract.
  • Rebranding as a Mining Contract
    Although I took care to explain mining bonds as part of the contract, it is apparent that not everyone has understood the differences between a traditional PMB and BFMines. As such, I have removed references to PMB and bonds in the contract, to be replaced with the term mining contract. To elaborate on the differences, I have written an article and I ask you to review that before casting your vote.
    http://coin.furuknap.net/comparing-bitcoin-mining-contracts-and-mining-bonds/
  • Removal of Named Hardware Provider
    The initial contract stated Metabank as the hardware provider. However, to allow for replacement providers in case of issues with Metabank and to support future expansions as per the contract, I have removed the reference to Metabank and replaced it with a general reference to hardware.

No other major changes are done at this time, but changes that benefit contract holders are in the planning stages.

Although BFAssets is still the majority share holder, I will not trumph these changes. However, my recommendation is that you vote Yes to approve these changes.

.b


First to address the last setence.  BFAssets is NOT the majority share-holder.  The majority of shares are still treasury ones and unsold.

The changes are NOT clearly in the interests of investors - some parts are NOT in the investors' interests and other parts are open to debate.

First there's the weasel words of "the reasonably perceived benefit of contract holders".  Reasonably perceived by whom?  If by contract holders then why are you trying to allow it unilaterally - when there's voting system that allows factual determination of what the perception of contract holders is.  If you mean "reasonably perceived" by yourself then it's meaningless - as it gives you free reign to do anything you want so long as you claim it's "reasonably perceived" by yourself.

In any event, any change that tries to make the bonds/contracts into some kind of communal ownership asset - where some holders can vote to change the rights of others - should NOT be allowed for anything claimed to be a bond.  It removes the certainty of expectation that holding a bond should deliver.

The second part appears to be attempting to remove your obligation to pay the equivalent of 1 MH/s of mining output and instead replace it with the actual output of your hardware.  That removes all guarantee of payment - and changes the entire nature of payouts from being PMB-like to be equivalent to owning shares : just with a much larger management cut than things openly admitting to be shares charge.

A 1.1% transaction fee bonus in no way compensates for stales, orphans, loss of net connection, equipment breakdown etc.

Even in your article you appear confused over this yourself - on the one hand saying invnestors get what's mined and on the other saying (in big type) :

"Note: During the first six months, while the hardware is still under warranty, the surplus mining power  in BFMines is paid out as a bonus to contract holders, meaning that for half a year, contract holders get more dividends than guaranteed."

What's guaranteed if it becomes a contract?  What is the absolute minimum investors will get paid per dividend?  There isn't one.

The third change is the worst of the lot - it would be fine with one change.

As your proposal stands, if the original hardware doesn't show up you could then order from someone else - and evenn if it didn't arrive for another year investors would be locked in at the same price and receive minimal return when hardware finally arrived.  If you want the flexibility to use other hardware then a fair change would be to allow other hardware to back the bonds/contracts so long as it was operational by the end of September (the originally defined target time-scale).  That removes the loophole in your proposed change where you can keep changing proposed hardware sources until either hardware prices are tiny OR market price is so low you can just buy back per the contract and pocket a fat profit without ever having mined anything.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Updates to Contract - Upcoming Motion

I will be posting a motion to update the BFMines contract today. The changes to the contract are done for a few reasons.

Technically, no motion is required as contracts do not have voting rights. However, I wish to include contract holders in the decision process.



When you enter a contract with someone NEITHER party has the right to unilaterally change the contract.  These aren't shares in a company - where there's shared ownership - they're contracts/bonds.  Removal of voting rights only means investors have no say in actions you're allowed to do WITHIN the contract - it in no way, shape or form, allows you alter the contract itself.

If you genuninely believe you have a RIGHT to change the contract terms however you see fit then you really badly need to be removed from any participation in issuing securities.  Totally removed.

Theoretically the only way you could change the contract AT ALL would be if every single bond-holder agreed - that's because the nature of them is that each is a seperate contract between you and the holder.  In practice, so long as the change is clearly in the favour of investors, I'd expect burnside to allow it if a vote passes (though any investor who objects should be refunded the full price they paid - as noone should EVER be forced to accept a change in a contract).

Don't start going all usagi on us and claiming contracts can be unilaterally amended or that a controlling interest can act against the interests of minority investors by virtue of having more shares.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
Updates to Contract - Upcoming Motion

I will be posting a motion to update the BFMines contract today. The changes to the contract are done for a few reasons.

Technically, no motion is required as contracts do not have voting rights. However, I wish to include contract holders in the decision process. Edit: please see Deprived's argument below, to which I fully agree. This was an unfortunate wording on my behalf.

The updated contract is shown on the BFMines home page at http://bfmines.com/contract/

In summary, the changes are the following:
  • New Clause for Further Changes
    I'm introducing a new clause for implementing contract changes in the future. The clause will allow me to change the contract unilaterally only if those changes are to the reasonably perceived benefit of contract holders or are of no consequence (such as a name change, spelling corrections, and so on). If changes are required that are not to the benefit of contract holders, changes must be accompanied by an offer of a buy-back as per the terms in the contract.
  • Rebranding as a Mining Contract
    Although I took care to explain mining bonds as part of the contract, it is apparent that not everyone has understood the differences between a traditional PMB and BFMines. As such, I have removed references to PMB and bonds in the contract, to be replaced with the term mining contract. To elaborate on the differences, I have written an article and I ask you to review that before casting your vote.
    http://coin.furuknap.net/comparing-bitcoin-mining-contracts-and-mining-bonds/
  • Removal of Named Hardware Provider
    The initial contract stated Metabank as the hardware provider. However, to allow for replacement providers in case of issues with Metabank and to support future expansions as per the contract, I have removed the reference to Metabank and replaced it with a general reference to hardware.

No other major changes are done at this time, but changes that benefit contract holders are in the planning stages.

Although BFAssets is still the majority share holder, I will not trumph these changes. Edit: please see Deprived's argument below, to which I fully agree. This was an unfortunate wording on my behalf.

However, my recommendation is that you vote Yes to approve these changes.

.b
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