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Topic: bter hacked and lost 50m nxt - page 15. (Read 25507 times)

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 15, 2014, 02:06:17 PM

That actually confirms the decentralised nature of it. Nobody in particular can choose to roll back, that has to be reached through a democratic decision built through a decentralised consensus. It's the very definition of decentralisation. What you are talking about is Laissez-Faire politics, where you just don't care about stopping the thief.



I don't necessarily support rollbacks. But as we've gone over many times in this thread, a group of miners/forgers deciding on what chain to continue on is clearly decentralised. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you can just apply an erroneous label to it.

well in your understanding 
centralized=decision of one person or maybe a few of persons
decentralized= decision of many people, majority wins

in my understanding
decentralized= individual decision of each and every person about their own property within the limit of given rules (code)
centralized= anybody (be it one person or many persons) can make arbitrary decisions about anybody elses's property

the whole purpose of Bitcoin or any other decent crypto as a technical solution is to guarantee that nobody can make arbitrary decisions about anybody else's property. This is why I am ready to call them decentralized solutions. Everybody has to follow the same rules. Majority of hashing power is used as a best way to prevent attacks, best incentive to stick to the code.  But in your undestanding one specific majority can make arbitrary decisions. 

whatever the result of the vote, I have serious misgivings about cryptocurrencies - just an existence of such a vote is bad

But you're wrong about what the purpose of Bitcoin is. It is designed so that it can change when a majority of people agree.

What your talking about is a completely different thing. And judging by the amount of people who agree with you perhaps someone should invent something similar. But it's not Bitcoin. And it's not any of the current cryptocurrencies, that is for sure.

You should have serious misgivings. I think a lot of people don't fully understand what is capable of happening. Imagine miners accepting changes  that benefit them at the cost of others. Now that might affect the price, but it's still possible.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Crypto Knight
August 15, 2014, 02:04:10 PM
50million bter "lost" nxt = 5% of nxt and $1.75m

800k btc (it is most likely more then that) that mt gox "lost" = about 7% of btc and $600m

If btc never rolled back how can nxt justify rolling back? If nxt do roll back they'll be looked at as a joke and a lot of people will lose confidence in it.

My advice to you is buy nxt when the price is tanking right now and I predict you'll make some decent profit.
member
Activity: 130
Merit: 10
August 15, 2014, 02:01:12 PM

That actually confirms the decentralised nature of it. Nobody in particular can choose to roll back, that has to be reached through a democratic decision built through a decentralised consensus. It's the very definition of decentralisation. What you are talking about is Laissez-Faire politics, where you just don't care about stopping the thief.



I don't necessarily support rollbacks. But as we've gone over many times in this thread, a group of miners/forgers deciding on what chain to continue on is clearly decentralised. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you can just apply an erroneous label to it.

well in your understanding 
centralized=decision of one person or maybe a few of persons
decentralized= decision of many people, majority wins

in my understanding
decentralized= individual decision of each and every person about their own property within the limit of given rules (code)
centralized= anybody (be it one person or many persons) can make arbitrary decisions about anybody elses's property

the whole purpose of Bitcoin or any other decent crypto as a technical solution is to guarantee that nobody can make arbitrary decisions about anybody else's property. This is why I am ready to call them decentralized solutions. Everybody has to follow the same rules. Majority of hashing power is used as a best way to prevent attacks, best incentive to stick to the code.  But in your undestanding one specific majority can make arbitrary decisions. 

whatever the result of the vote, I have serious misgivings about cryptocurrencies - just an existence of such a vote is bad


This is what I've been trying to say but didn't know how. I'm not technological and economic ninja but I don't think this is insurmountable problem.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Crypto Knight
August 15, 2014, 01:59:12 PM
If I have learned anything in the world of crypto. It's just when you think nothing can get worse just when you think everythings at an all time low Mark Karpeles will walk his fat fucking ass into the room and spill a boiling hot frappucino all over your computer. Mark my words thinks are about to get worse.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
electroneum.com
August 15, 2014, 01:58:46 PM

That actually confirms the decentralised nature of it. Nobody in particular can choose to roll back, that has to be reached through a democratic decision built through a decentralised consensus. It's the very definition of decentralisation. What you are talking about is Laissez-Faire politics, where you just don't care about stopping the thief.



I don't necessarily support rollbacks. But as we've gone over many times in this thread, a group of miners/forgers deciding on what chain to continue on is clearly decentralised. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you can just apply an erroneous label to it.

well in your understanding 
centralized=decision of one person or maybe a few of persons
decentralized= decision of many people, majority wins

in my understanding
decentralized= individual decision of each and every person about their own property within the limit of given rules (code)
centralized= anybody (be it one person or many persons) can make arbitrary decisions about anybody elses's property

the whole purpose of Bitcoin or any other decent crypto as a technical solution is to guarantee that nobody can make arbitrary decisions about anybody else's property. This is why I am ready to call them decentralized solutions. Everybody has to follow the same rules. Majority of hashing power is used as a best way to prevent attacks, best incentive to stick to the code.  But in your undestanding one specific majority can make arbitrary decisions. 

whatever the result of the vote, I have serious misgivings about cryptocurrencies - just an existence of such a vote is bad


This is a very great explanation, he did a much better job explaining why I've wanted to punch my computer reading these "decentralized" posts for the last few hours.

Great post. So do you now understand everyone?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
electroneum.com
August 15, 2014, 01:55:08 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol


+ 1000

You can say it is decentralized as many as you can type a post, it does't change the fact

Rollback = centralized

There's really no other way to describe it. I'm amazed at what people around here will label "decentralized"

"but they voted, so it's not centralized" GTFO LOL SMH   Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
August 15, 2014, 01:50:55 PM

That actually confirms the decentralised nature of it. Nobody in particular can choose to roll back, that has to be reached through a democratic decision built through a decentralised consensus. It's the very definition of decentralisation. What you are talking about is Laissez-Faire politics, where you just don't care about stopping the thief.



I don't necessarily support rollbacks. But as we've gone over many times in this thread, a group of miners/forgers deciding on what chain to continue on is clearly decentralised. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you can just apply an erroneous label to it.

well in your understanding 
centralized=decision of one person or maybe a few of persons
decentralized= decision of many people, majority wins

in my understanding
decentralized= individual decision of each and every person about their own property within the limit of given rules (code)
centralized= anybody (be it one person or many persons) can make arbitrary decisions about anybody elses's property

the whole purpose of Bitcoin or any other decent crypto as a technical solution is to guarantee that nobody can make arbitrary decisions about anybody else's property. This is why I am ready to call them decentralized solutions. Everybody has to follow the same rules. Majority of hashing power is used as a best way to prevent attacks, best incentive to stick to the code.  But in your undestanding one specific majority can make arbitrary decisions. 

whatever the result of the vote, I have serious misgivings about cryptocurrencies - just an existence of such a vote is bad
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
August 15, 2014, 01:44:04 PM
btc itself is going into the toilet.  It just broke 500 and no signs of slowing. 



like it's a new thing lol

nothing new really, we have seen that many time
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
August 15, 2014, 01:41:41 PM
When Transparent Forging is implemented within NXT, the timeframe for a rollback will be only 10 blocks/minutes.
Right now, its 720blocks/12 hours, so even that window is now effectively closed.

Well, not yet, it will close at block 210605, which would be 720 blocks after the hack.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1001
August 15, 2014, 01:39:38 PM
I don't care if they roll it back or not. It just made more widely known the problem that there is, with difficulty, the possibility of a rollback.

I hope our crypto innovators will make rollbacks an impossibility, or near impossibility in the future. Like the way I can't use brute computing force to get your private keys to an address without the help of a quantuum computer from 40 years in the future.

When Transparent Forging is implemented within NXT, the timeframe for a rollback will be only 10 blocks/minutes.
Right now, its 720blocks/12 hours, so even that window is now effectively closed.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1001
August 15, 2014, 01:37:04 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol

Except that you're not listening.....NXT is not going to do a rollback on this, the power to make the decision lies with the community. not the devs.
The timeframe for a partial rollback is going to be over soon, so we can then move on to chasing the thief in the old-fashioned way.....
sr. member
Activity: 316
Merit: 250
August 15, 2014, 01:24:08 PM
im trying to get my bitcoins off right now, as im a bit worried, so anyone else having issues withdrawing there coins?

Has your bitcoin withdrawal worked yet?
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1001
August 15, 2014, 01:10:59 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol

If you do your research you'll see the Vericoin rollback was simply decided by the Vericoin devs by themselves. Whereas NXT allowed the outcome to be decided via voting with your NXT (seems decentralised to me). And overwhelming the votes are in favour of no rollback, which is being respected.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 15, 2014, 01:08:41 PM
btc itself is going into the toilet.  It just broke 500 and no signs of slowing. 



Headlines:

NXT Theft causes Bitcoin crash!

Threat of NXT rollback causes widespread loss of confidence in Bitcoin!

Tongue
member
Activity: 130
Merit: 10
August 15, 2014, 01:08:15 PM
btc itself is going into the toilet.  It just broke 500 and no signs of slowing. 



Could be just more merchant adoption, as merchants often insta sell for USD. I think in the long term this is good for bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 15, 2014, 01:06:57 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol

I don't necessarily support rollbacks. But as we've gone over many times in this thread, a group of miners/forgers deciding on what chain to continue on is clearly decentralised. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you can just apply an erroneous label to it.
jr. member
Activity: 59
Merit: 10
August 15, 2014, 01:06:55 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol

That actually confirms the decentralised nature of it. Nobody in particular can choose to roll back, that has to be reached through a democratic decision built through a decentralised consensus. It's the very definition of decentralisation. What you are talking about is Laissez-Faire politics, where you just don't care about stopping the thief.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
August 15, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
btc itself is going into the toilet.  It just broke 500 and no signs of slowing. 

member
Activity: 130
Merit: 10
August 15, 2014, 01:05:14 PM
I don't care if they roll it back or not. It just made more widely known the problem that there is, with difficulty, the possibility of a rollback.

I hope our crypto innovators will make rollbacks an impossibility, or near impossibility in the future. Like the way I can't use brute computing force to get your private keys to an address without the help of a quantuum computer from 40 years in the future.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
August 15, 2014, 01:02:35 PM
Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not Smiley


rollback = centralized

This ^.

I think it is so funny how coins like Vericoin and now NXT tout themselves as a "DECENTRALIZED" currency. But when a large hack occurs ... "oops can we just roll back the chain this one time?"

lol
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