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Topic: Buff.bet unfairly closing account and confiscating 399mbtc balance (Read 479 times)

full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Okay they paid me the first part of my balance today, as promised (48mbtc). I will now close this topic, thanks.
member
Activity: 143
Merit: 40
The company behind Buff is a solid company with good people.

Come on, no need to grovel just because they do not scam you in the end. At least for their attempt, we have to blame them!

I've been sports betting half of my life and I can tell you one thing for sure: There are no good people in this business.
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises.
Well, you can't Wink It literally said so when you created the Flags: "Flags cannot be deleted!".
You can withdraw your Support, but that doesn't mean the Flag becomes inactive.
You may want to read up on Trust flags:
Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements.

Okay well then I will just withdraw my support and add a text to it that it has been resolved or something.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises.
Well, you can't Wink It literally said so when you created the Flags: "Flags cannot be deleted!".
You can withdraw your Support, but that doesn't mean the Flag becomes inactive.
You may want to read up on Trust flags:
Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements.
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.
You seem to have a lot of confidence in the scammers who took your money.

Let's not forget they always paid me nicely for a full year. The only way I will not receive the funds is if they go bankrupt. They will not want me to take legal action. They just want to resume service as normal as possible, also on Bitcointalk, and they have a lot of incentive to just pay me out according to the plan.
The company behind Buff is a solid company with good people.
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.
Why can't this Nasdaq company not afford to pay 399.65 mBTC at once? And why is it in euros again, does that mean the amount you'll receive in Bitcoin can still go up or down?

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I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds.
Might I suggest to leave your Flags for now? The Flag system only requires you to withdraw Support for your Flag after "make the victims of this act roughly whole", which would be 8 months from now. I'd appreciate if you post monthly updates on how they're doing, and it looks like I'll keep Supporting the Flags for the coming 8 months.

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I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.
Removing the posts from their topic won't matter, there are enough quotes in there, and the Trust ratings are clearly visible.

They already had a 3000 euro monthly payout limit listed in their terms anyway so this isn't much lower.
And no, I will receive 399.65mbtc for sure no matter what happens with the price. The only relevance for the BTC-Euro rate is the amount of mbtc I will receive each month. Does BTC value rise a lot, then the monthly mbtc amount I receive will be smaller but the total will still be 399.65mtbc in the end. It will just take longer.

No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises. However ofcourse if they fail to mee the monthly payments at some point I will create a new flag. As long as you don't hear from me you can be sure they are sticking to their monthly payment plan.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.
You seem to have a lot of confidence in the scammers who took your money.
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month.

What do you mean they pay you 2000 Euro per month?

The instalment they pay you varies on the current BTC price?

So if BTC is skyrocketing, you will lose value?

I mean, if that was your suggestion, it's alright. Maybe you planned to sell your BTC anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Anyways, congrats!


I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)

Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful Wink

They always had a 3000 euro equivalent monthly limit, now I suggested they can make it 2000 if they want.
It does not mean I will lose value. My BTC balance remains the same. Just every month they calculate at the moment of payout what 2000 euro is worth in bitcoins and pay me that.
I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.

And no, you're wrong about the sell-assumtion. I'm not planning to sell any of my BTC in the coming years at all. And exactly this solution suits that need. I keep my balance in BTC and receive a small part of it each month. If BTC price rises I still take full profit of it just as much as I would had i just kep the BTC in my own wallet all this time.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.
Why can this Nasdaq company not afford to pay 399.65 mBTC at once? And why is it in euros again, does that mean the amount you'll receive in Bitcoin can still go up or down?

I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)
Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful Wink
Exactly. It's the big warning Flags that made them change their mind. Note that they haven't been online on Bitcointalk since they got Flagged.
Now that I think about it: wasn't it against regulations to pay Germans? Lol! Such flexible regulations!
member
Activity: 143
Merit: 40
Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month.

What do you mean they pay you 2000 Euro per month?

The instalment they pay you varies on the current BTC price?

So if BTC is skyrocketing, you will lose value?

I mean, if that was your suggestion, it's alright. Maybe you planned to sell your BTC anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Anyways, congrats!


I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)

Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful Wink
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Any update ? Did they Reply to you ?

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.
Tomorrow, the 3rd of September, they will pay the first installment to a BTC address of my choosing. I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds. I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.

Thank you all for your support in this case. I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just made a very bad judgement call but corrected it now. Also another reminder that you should stand up for yourself and fight for your right and in many cases justice will come.
member
Activity: 352
Merit: 18
Pepemo.vip
Any update ? Did they Reply to you ?
full member
Activity: 1134
Merit: 140
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We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable. Nevertheless we are willing to take a fair approach on this matter.

Sounds like they are doing a favor by being honest in judgement Undecided

If German players were not allowed, why was he even allowed to register at the casino?
member
Activity: 143
Merit: 40
The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.

 Grin

First of all, it was not the "Ministerium für Inneres..." (they probably mean the Bundesinnenministerium = Federal Ministry of the Interior) which ratified the new gambling law called "Glücksspielstaatsvertrag" but the 16 federal states of Germany. Gambling falls under the legislation of the federal states. The Federal Ministry of the Interior has no legislative competence in this regard.

Secondly, online gambling has always been illegal in Germany. There was just a grey area when it came to prosecution. German authorities tolerated especially EU-based operators from Malta and Gibraltar because the highest court of the EU, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), chid Germany multiple times for their national gambling law reasoning that it would violate fundamental rights of the EU like the "Freedom of Establishment and Freedom to Provide Services in the European Union". So, what Germany did was just tolerating online gambling but, formally, it has NEVER been legal before July 1. In fact, sports betting and casino was a state monopoly and land based only.

In short, suggesting that online gambling suddenly became illegal in Germany on July 1, 2021 is just wrong. It has always been illegal in this country.

Regarding the Bitcoin <-> Euro thing, I can support what LoyceV said. It's so shady, it makes them even look worse. They know exactly that they "made a mistake" (aka tried to scam) and that they have to pay in order to keep face. But instead of just paying the remaining balance, they are now trying to push down the amount. And on top of that all, they are not even willing (or able?) to pay the balance at once.

The whole story throws such a bad light on Buff.bet and their parent company XB Systems AG.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
What do you guys think?
They're still scamming you, but they're trying to save face. That won't work on Bitcointalk.

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We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable.
That's BS. You went through their KYC, they knew exactly who and where you are.

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The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.
My German is rusty, so I didn't check those claims. Either way, if they wanted to follow those regulations, they should have implemented it on time.

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Following on from this, and being bound by the laws of the relevant authorities, transactions and bets from German users since that date can not be accepted and are not accepted.
"Relevant authorities" sounds like mumbo jumbo. I'd expect a more accurate answer from a legal team.

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After carefully checking the transaction and betting history of your betting account after June 30th, you had a balance of 408.33 mBTC at a conversion rate of €29,552.36 per bitcoin. The regulation came into force 1st of July 2021 after which all bets are voided. On July 14th you were paid the amount of 110 mBTC so that makes 298.33 mBTC (8853.82 EUR) outstanding balance to be paid at that period of time. Considering the exchange rate fluctuation, and the current BTC price, the remaining amount of your balance to be paid is 221.17 mBTC (8853.82 EUR). This balance will be paid out in accordance with our terms and conditions in 3 monthly increments to a bitcoin wallet address that you specify.
I have so many questions about this:
Why are they converting Bitcoin to euro and then back to Bitcoin? It's obvious they only use this to lower the total amount, if your Bitcoin deposits weren't instantly converted to euro, this makes absolutely no sense. They could just as well have converted it to carrots and back.

Why do they pay this in 3 monthly increments? Can't they afford to pay at once? Or is that to keep you from taking legal action against them?
And why do they think today's Bitcoin rate is even relevant? Why not the rate at the moment they're actually going to pay you the small part of your total winnings? Have they paid the first "installment" yet?

How did they get those exchange rates? Bitcoinaverage gives this:
June 30th: €29,351.46
July 1st: €28,449.77
July 14th: €27,598,94
Why do they use the same exchange rate on July 14th as on June 30th?

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It's one step in the right direction, but far from a good solution to me. First of all, I think it's still their fault that they kept accepting bets from Germans after July 1st. Especially cause it's not set and stone that all Germans were removed from all gambling websites on that date. In fact, I have not been thrown out of any gambling website. For none of my bookmakers this 1st July regulation was a reason to throw Germans out. Ofcourse every bookmaker is in their right to do so, but they have to inform me at or before that date, not 50 days after and void bets in retrospect. But surely it's not the case that I had to realize I was not allowed to bet anymore in bookmakers.
Secondly, they start counting bitcoin rates and calculating bitcoin to Euros at values of certain dates. This however is completely unfair, because I never intended to exchange bitcoins to Euros and it's not up to them to decide if I should do so. My account in Buff is in Bitcoins, not Euros. My personal plan was and is to keep my bitcoins for the long term because I believe in crypto. It's completely irrelevant how much Euros they were worth at a certain day. I'm 100% sure they would not have given me more bitcoin than I had, if the value would have dropped since June 30th.
After all, their solution would mean Im receiving just 55% of the amount I was owed....which is not acceptable to me.

Oh and btw, their first line that it's "culpable" of me that I "repeatedly" asked in forums how I could violate their terms, is a little bit over the top. First of all, I only asked one time "hey buff, why are Germans actually not allowed?" (other users asked the following questions) and this was not with the intention to violate terms, it was simply out of curiosity and thinking they maybe made a mistake listing Germany as a forbidden country. And after a swift response of them "oh you can actually make an account with crypto, go ahead" I was convinced. Surely not me actively looking how I could violate their terms.
You're absolutely right on all points.
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Quote
We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable. Nevertheless we are willing to take a fair approach on this matter.

The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.

Following on from this, and being bound by the laws of the relevant authorities, transactions and bets from German users since that date can not be accepted and are not accepted.

After carefully checking the transaction and betting history of your betting account after June 30th, you had a balance of 408.33 mBTC at a conversion rate of €29,552.36 per bitcoin. The regulation came into force 1st of July 2021 after which all bets are voided. On July 14th you were paid the amount of 110 mBTC so that makes 298.33 mBTC (8853.82 EUR) outstanding balance to be paid at that period of time. Considering the exchange rate fluctuation, and the current BTC price, the remaining amount of your balance to be paid is 221.17 mBTC (8853.82 EUR). This balance will be paid out in accordance with our terms and conditions in 3 monthly increments to a bitcoin wallet address that you specify.

After having been ignored for a full week by their email support, they suddenly came up with this today.

It's one step in the right direction, but far from a good solution to me. First of all, I think it's still their fault that they kept accepting bets from Germans after July 1st. Especially cause it's not set and stone that all Germans were removed from all gambling websites on that date. In fact, I have not been thrown out of any gambling website. For none of my bookmakers this 1st July regulation was a reason to throw Germans out. Ofcourse every bookmaker is in their right to do so, but they have to inform me at or before that date, not 50 days after and void bets in retrospect. But surely it's not the case that I had to realize I was not allowed to bet anymore in bookmakers.
Secondly, they start counting bitcoin rates and calculating bitcoin to Euros at values of certain dates. This however is completely unfair, because I never intended to exchange bitcoins to Euros and it's not up to them to decide if I should do so. My account in Buff is in Bitcoins, not Euros. My personal plan was and is to keep my bitcoins for the long term because I believe in crypto. It's completely irrelevant how much Euros they were worth at a certain day. I'm 100% sure they would not have given me more bitcoin than I had, if the value would have dropped since June 30th.
After all, their solution would mean Im receiving just 55% of the amount I was owed....which is not acceptable to me.

Oh and btw, their first line that it's "culpable" of me that I "repeatedly" asked in forums how I could violate their terms, is a little bit over the top. First of all, I only asked one time "hey buff, why are Germans actually not allowed?" (other users asked the following questions) and this was not with the intention to violate terms, it was simply out of curiosity and thinking they maybe made a mistake listing Germany as a forbidden country. And after a swift response of them "oh you can actually make an account with crypto, go ahead" I was convinced. Surely not me actively looking how I could violate their terms.

What do you guys think?
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

Seems examplens did not set the currency to crypto, that's why he did not see Germany in the list.
I did a quick check on their Terms and Conditions page and they are restricting players from some countries but some of the restricted countries is still available in the drop down menu when I select crypto as the main currency.
Restricted countries as per their terms:
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Australia, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Germany, France, Kazakhstan, Poland, Russia, Slovakia (Slovak Republic), Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States of America, S.A.R. and Bulgaria.


The countries in bold are still available in the list when I select crypto, so the same thing may happen for anyone from those countries.
If they restricts some countries, they should not have the countries in the list on registration. Is it a trap?


Yes, it is a trap. It gives them a freeroll on clients from those countries. If they lose, they are welcome to stay, if they win they will be thrown out with funds confiscated citing their terms.
Normally they could maybe legally still get away with that, but in my case they clearly stated in writing that they do in fact accept Germans with crypto currency and they verified my account completely a couple of months before funds got confiscated, meaning they cannot deny they knew very well I was from Germany and didn't take action before.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 1354
Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

Seems examplens did not set the currency to crypto, that's why he did not see Germany in the list.
I did a quick check on their Terms and Conditions page and they are restricting players from some countries but some of the restricted countries is still available in the drop down menu when I select crypto as the main currency.
Restricted countries as per their terms:
Quote
Australia, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Germany, France, Kazakhstan, Poland, Russia, Slovakia (Slovak Republic), Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States of America, S.A.R. and Bulgaria.


The countries in bold are still available in the list when I select crypto, so the same thing may happen for anyone from those countries.
If they restricts some countries, they should not have the countries in the list on registration. Is it a trap?
full member
Activity: 512
Merit: 102
It makes no sense repeating what I already said in the corresponding ANN thread of this casino, so I will just quote myself below. I am glad OP opened a scam accusation and hopefully he will get some sort of justice. Make sure that you take your case to AskGamblers as well.

Since BUFF.bet doesn't look like they are interested in resolving this, I am removing them from my Withdrawal Fees and Withdrawal Amounts on Crypto Casinos list. No matter how this case gets resolved, they are scammers in my book.

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@BUFF.bet
I remember that post I made almost a year ago where I asked you why citizens of restricted countries can freely sign up on your casino even if they shouldn't be allowed based on your ToS. You reassured me and the community that players from countries such as Germany aren't allowed to play on Buff.bet with fiat, but they can use crypto and it wouldn't be a problem because such restrictions don't apply when using cryptocurrencies.

What you are doing now is basically the opposite of that. You are preventing a player you know is from a restricted location to continue playing on your platform? You knew he was from Germany and it wasn't a problem for you in the past, but now it's a problem. I wonder if his account would have been closed if he was losing money regularly!?

Based on what I see here, I think that despite the fact that GekkeBelg is from a location whose citizens shouldn't be allowed to gamble on Buff.bet, you told everyone that it was OK as long as they played with crypto. At this point all I can do is advice GekkeBelg to open a scam accusation against you because you confiscated his money. It doesn't matter how much he played, deposited, and won in the past because you didn't have a problem with it in the past.

You said that new regulations don't allow you to have players from Germany on your site. OK, that can be true, I don't know. If it's true, you can't apply rules retroactively and count what the player withdrew from the site in the past when such regulations weren't in place back then. Speaking of new regulations, can you show some proof that your regulator recently requested that you close GekkeBelg's account or the accounts of other German players?

If a scam accusation is opened against your site, you might see your account tagged with negative trust. It's your mistake if you allowed players from restricted jurisdictions to sign up and use your services because you said it was fine to do so. Now you have to do the right thing.

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I will repeat what I said earlier. If that is no longer the case, and you can't have German players on your casino, you can't just apply those rules to a period in time where those regulations weren't yet in place and you were in fact allowed to have players from Germany gambling with crypto. You are doing that currently with this player in question. The appropriate course of action would have been to inform those players who reside in restricted locations and tell them that they are no longer allowed to play on your casino for this and that reason. You didn't do that and went straight to confiscating funds.

Did you understand what LoyceV was trying to tell you? You are heading towards the direction of having Buff.bet being market a scam. Why throw away a decent reputation here for such a foolish act? The ball is in your court, do what you want with it.

I did submit a complaint on Askgamblers. But the sad thing is they rejected it because it was "a regulatory issue" and said I had to submit my complaint to the Curacao Gaming Authority. Then I explained that it's NOT a regulatory issue since on their license Germany is not listed as a forbidden country and it was totally the own choice of Buff to throw out Germans. And after that they still wouldn't take on my complaint. Also submitted a negative review, also rejected. Looks like they are sponsored by Buff somehow....very sad that Askgamblers is sliding this way now too....
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
It makes no sense repeating what I already said in the corresponding ANN thread of this casino, so I will just quote myself below. I am glad OP opened a scam accusation and hopefully he will get some sort of justice. Make sure that you take your case to AskGamblers as well.

Since BUFF.bet doesn't look like they are interested in resolving this, I am removing them from my Withdrawal Fees and Withdrawal Amounts on Crypto Casinos list. No matter how this case gets resolved, they are scammers in my book.

Quote
@BUFF.bet
I remember that post I made almost a year ago where I asked you why citizens of restricted countries can freely sign up on your casino even if they shouldn't be allowed based on your ToS. You reassured me and the community that players from countries such as Germany aren't allowed to play on Buff.bet with fiat, but they can use crypto and it wouldn't be a problem because such restrictions don't apply when using cryptocurrencies.

What you are doing now is basically the opposite of that. You are preventing a player you know is from a restricted location to continue playing on your platform? You knew he was from Germany and it wasn't a problem for you in the past, but now it's a problem. I wonder if his account would have been closed if he was losing money regularly!?

Based on what I see here, I think that despite the fact that GekkeBelg is from a location whose citizens shouldn't be allowed to gamble on Buff.bet, you told everyone that it was OK as long as they played with crypto. At this point all I can do is advice GekkeBelg to open a scam accusation against you because you confiscated his money. It doesn't matter how much he played, deposited, and won in the past because you didn't have a problem with it in the past.

You said that new regulations don't allow you to have players from Germany on your site. OK, that can be true, I don't know. If it's true, you can't apply rules retroactively and count what the player withdrew from the site in the past when such regulations weren't in place back then. Speaking of new regulations, can you show some proof that your regulator recently requested that you close GekkeBelg's account or the accounts of other German players?

If a scam accusation is opened against your site, you might see your account tagged with negative trust. It's your mistake if you allowed players from restricted jurisdictions to sign up and use your services because you said it was fine to do so. Now you have to do the right thing.

Quote
I will repeat what I said earlier. If that is no longer the case, and you can't have German players on your casino, you can't just apply those rules to a period in time where those regulations weren't yet in place and you were in fact allowed to have players from Germany gambling with crypto. You are doing that currently with this player in question. The appropriate course of action would have been to inform those players who reside in restricted locations and tell them that they are no longer allowed to play on your casino for this and that reason. You didn't do that and went straight to confiscating funds.

Did you understand what LoyceV was trying to tell you? You are heading towards the direction of having Buff.bet being market a scam. Why throw away a decent reputation here for such a foolish act? The ball is in your court, do what you want with it.
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