Topic: Buff.bet unfairly closing account and confiscating 399mbtc balance (Read 479 times)

Okay they paid me the first part of my balance today, as promised (48mbtc). I will now close this topic, thanks.

Come on, no need to grovel just because they do not scam you in the end. At least for their attempt, we have to blame them!

I've been sports betting half of my life and I can tell you one thing for sure: There are no good people in this business.

Okay well then I will just withdraw my support and add a text to it that it has been resolved or something.

Well, you can't It literally said so when you created the Flags: "Flags cannot be deleted!".
You can withdraw your Support, but that doesn't mean the Flag becomes inactive.
You may want to read up on Trust flags:

Let's not forget they always paid me nicely for a full year. The only way I will not receive the funds is if they go bankrupt. They will not want me to take legal action. They just want to resume service as normal as possible, also on Bitcointalk, and they have a lot of incentive to just pay me out according to the plan.
The company behind Buff is a solid company with good people.

They already had a 3000 euro monthly payout limit listed in their terms anyway so this isn't much lower.
And no, I will receive 399.65mbtc for sure no matter what happens with the price. The only relevance for the BTC-Euro rate is the amount of mbtc I will receive each month. Does BTC value rise a lot, then the monthly mbtc amount I receive will be smaller but the total will still be 399.65mtbc in the end. It will just take longer.

No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises. However ofcourse if they fail to mee the monthly payments at some point I will create a new flag. As long as you don't hear from me you can be sure they are sticking to their monthly payment plan.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the scammers who took your money.

They always had a 3000 euro equivalent monthly limit, now I suggested they can make it 2000 if they want.
It does not mean I will lose value. My BTC balance remains the same. Just every month they calculate at the moment of payout what 2000 euro is worth in bitcoins and pay me that.
I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.

And no, you're wrong about the sell-assumtion. I'm not planning to sell any of my BTC in the coming years at all. And exactly this solution suits that need. I keep my balance in BTC and receive a small part of it each month. If BTC price rises I still take full profit of it just as much as I would had i just kep the BTC in my own wallet all this time.

Why can this Nasdaq company not afford to pay 399.65 mBTC at once? And why is it in euros again, does that mean the amount you'll receive in Bitcoin can still go up or down?

Exactly. It's the big warning Flags that made them change their mind. Note that they haven't been online on Bitcointalk since they got Flagged.
Now that I think about it: wasn't it against regulations to pay Germans? Lol! Such flexible regulations!

What do you mean they pay you 2000 Euro per month?

The instalment they pay you varies on the current BTC price?

So if BTC is skyrocketing, you will lose value?

I mean, if that was your suggestion, it's alright. Maybe you planned to sell your BTC anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Anyways, congrats!



Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.
Tomorrow, the 3rd of September, they will pay the first installment to a BTC address of my choosing. I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds. I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.

Thank you all for your support in this case. I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just made a very bad judgement call but corrected it now. Also another reminder that you should stand up for yourself and fight for your right and in many cases justice will come.

Any update ? Did they Reply to you ?

Sounds like they are doing a favor by being honest in judgement

If German players were not allowed, why was he even allowed to register at the casino?

 

First of all, it was not the "Ministerium für Inneres..." (they probably mean the Bundesinnenministerium = Federal Ministry of the Interior) which ratified the new gambling law called "Glücksspielstaatsvertrag" but the 16 federal states of Germany. Gambling falls under the legislation of the federal states. The Federal Ministry of the Interior has no legislative competence in this regard.

Secondly, online gambling has always been illegal in Germany. There was just a grey area when it came to prosecution. German authorities tolerated especially EU-based operators from Malta and Gibraltar because the highest court of the EU, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), chid Germany multiple times for their national gambling law reasoning that it would violate fundamental rights of the EU like the "Freedom of Establishment and Freedom to Provide Services in the European Union". So, what Germany did was just tolerating online gambling but, formally, it has NEVER been legal before July 1. In fact, sports betting and casino was a state monopoly and land based only.

In short, suggesting that online gambling suddenly became illegal in Germany on July 1, 2021 is just wrong. It has always been illegal in this country.

Regarding the Bitcoin <-> Euro thing, I can support what LoyceV said. It's so shady, it makes them even look worse. They know exactly that they "made a mistake" (aka tried to scam) and that they have to pay in order to keep face. But instead of just paying the remaining balance, they are now trying to push down the amount. And on top of that all, they are not even willing (or able?) to pay the balance at once.

The whole story throws such a bad light on Buff.bet and their parent company XB Systems AG.

They're still scamming you, but they're trying to save face. That won't work on Bitcointalk.

That's BS. You went through their KYC, they knew exactly who and where you are.

My German is rusty, so I didn't check those claims. Either way, if they wanted to follow those regulations, they should have implemented it on time.

"Relevant authorities" sounds like mumbo jumbo. I'd expect a more accurate answer from a legal team.

I have so many questions about this:
Why are they converting Bitcoin to euro and then back to Bitcoin? It's obvious they only use this to lower the total amount, if your Bitcoin deposits weren't instantly converted to euro, this makes absolutely no sense. They could just as well have converted it to carrots and back.

Why do they pay this in 3 monthly increments? Can't they afford to pay at once? Or is that to keep you from taking legal action against them?
And why do they think today's Bitcoin rate is even relevant? Why not the rate at the moment they're actually going to pay you the small part of your total winnings? Have they paid the first "installment" yet?

How did they get those exchange rates? Bitcoinaverage gives this:
June 30th: €29,351.46
July 1st: €28,449.77
July 14th: €27,598,94
Why do they use the same exchange rate on July 14th as on June 30th?

You're absolutely right on all points.

After having been ignored for a full week by their email support, they suddenly came up with this today.

It's one step in the right direction, but far from a good solution to me. First of all, I think it's still their fault that they kept accepting bets from Germans after July 1st. Especially cause it's not set and stone that all Germans were removed from all gambling websites on that date. In fact, I have not been thrown out of any gambling website. For none of my bookmakers this 1st July regulation was a reason to throw Germans out. Ofcourse every bookmaker is in their right to do so, but they have to inform me at or before that date, not 50 days after and void bets in retrospect. But surely it's not the case that I had to realize I was not allowed to bet anymore in bookmakers.
Secondly, they start counting bitcoin rates and calculating bitcoin to Euros at values of certain dates. This however is completely unfair, because I never intended to exchange bitcoins to Euros and it's not up to them to decide if I should do so. My account in Buff is in Bitcoins, not Euros. My personal plan was and is to keep my bitcoins for the long term because I believe in crypto. It's completely irrelevant how much Euros they were worth at a certain day. I'm 100% sure they would not have given me more bitcoin than I had, if the value would have dropped since June 30th.
After all, their solution would mean Im receiving just 55% of the amount I was owed....which is not acceptable to me.

Oh and btw, their first line that it's "culpable" of me that I "repeatedly" asked in forums how I could violate their terms, is a little bit over the top. First of all, I only asked one time "hey buff, why are Germans actually not allowed?" (other users asked the following questions) and this was not with the intention to violate terms, it was simply out of curiosity and thinking they maybe made a mistake listing Germany as a forbidden country. And after a swift response of them "oh you can actually make an account with crypto, go ahead" I was convinced. Surely not me actively looking how I could violate their terms.

What do you guys think?

Yes, it is a trap. It gives them a freeroll on clients from those countries. If they lose, they are welcome to stay, if they win they will be thrown out with funds confiscated citing their terms.
Normally they could maybe legally still get away with that, but in my case they clearly stated in writing that they do in fact accept Germans with crypto currency and they verified my account completely a couple of months before funds got confiscated, meaning they cannot deny they knew very well I was from Germany and didn't take action before.

Seems examplens did not set the currency to crypto, that's why he did not see Germany in the list.
I did a quick check on their Terms and Conditions page and they are restricting players from some countries but some of the restricted countries is still available in the drop down menu when I select crypto as the main currency.
Restricted countries as per their terms:


The countries in bold are still available in the list when I select crypto, so the same thing may happen for anyone from those countries.
If they restricts some countries, they should not have the countries in the list on registration. Is it a trap?

I did submit a complaint on Askgamblers. But the sad thing is they rejected it because it was "a regulatory issue" and said I had to submit my complaint to the Curacao Gaming Authority. Then I explained that it's NOT a regulatory issue since on their license Germany is not listed as a forbidden country and it was totally the own choice of Buff to throw out Germans. And after that they still wouldn't take on my complaint. Also submitted a negative review, also rejected. Looks like they are sponsored by Buff somehow....very sad that Askgamblers is sliding this way now too....

It makes no sense repeating what I already said in the corresponding ANN thread of this casino, so I will just quote myself below. I am glad OP opened a scam accusation and hopefully he will get some sort of justice. Make sure that you take your case to AskGamblers as well.

Since BUFF.bet doesn't look like they are interested in resolving this, I am removing them from my Withdrawal Fees and Withdrawal Amounts on Crypto Casinos list. No matter how this case gets resolved, they are scammers in my book.

It's still available if you select any crypto currency in the form:

https://i.imgur.com/WOw0xal.png
https://i.imgur.com/aURKcKg.png
https://i.imgur.com/2yu2puh.png

It's pretty obvious to me that they don't have access to the code, so blocking German IPs was the only option they had. Meaning that if you are a German (currently) located in another country or just using a simple browser built-in VPN (e.g. in Opera) like I did, you can still register. It's really working, I just tried. I even filled the address data with a real German email domain and a real existing German address:

https://i.imgur.com/99KkUbH.png
https://i.imgur.com/a540feA.png

It even says "Account status: Verified:" although the chosen name, email address, DOB and phone number is completely fake 

What a shady book.

Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

they seem to follow this thread after all. made changes and users from Germany can't register anymore. there is no more Germany as an option in drop-down menu.
now it remains to return the locked money of theirs users.



they also introduced some restrictions and IP address checking, this is what it looks like on my first visit.

No, it's not just you. I can't access the site either.


Yeah, unlucky if you're not the owner of the software and have to wait for some external provider to edit the code.

Btw, since yesterday I noticed they don't allow German IP-addresses to visit the site anymore....there is some kind of cloudflare error. But maybe it's just that they only blocked my IP.
But Germany is still in the country list when signing up with Bitcoin as of today.

I have invited both Buff88 and eGoldgg in a private message to come defend themselves in this topic. I doubt they will have the courage to do it, but we will see.....

Patiently I have read thread carefully. According to the Op's proof documents It's clear that buff.bet accepted the users from German (for crypto only). But later what they did it totally unfair. They can not do it and can not freeze the account. Or if the does not support German lately then there should be an open way for the users from German to Withdraw their fund.

It's totally unfair and I will go to support the flags until they solve the issue.

I have just created the Flag type 1 against eGoldgg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1208890
I wasn't sure if I had to quote the scam accusation topic or the normal gambling topic, I choose the scam accusation topic.

It was created by eGoldgg, so they must have locked it. That explains why they came online without responding to the accusations.
So far, their response to the scam accusation has been very unprofessional.

If it's an official registered company, that may work, but I've never seen a similar action during my years in crypto.

I'm not sure if the Flag against eGoldgg can be Supported based on the Flag rules:

A (yellow) Newbie warning Flag (type 1) has less strict Flag rules. GekkeBelg: will you create one on eGoldgg? It's this one:

Totally bad for them, they've fan the flames to get more bigger with that deed because they are implying that they're guilty and that they don't have any plans to resolve the issue they have against OP.

The only people who can lock the topic is the person who created a topic or in extreme cases the forum administrator(possibly the mods but i'm not sure). So my guess is buff88 locked the topic hoping this accusation will just disappear, but in reality has just made it worse on himself and the site.

I see the regular Buff topic in the Gambling subforum has been locked.....who locked it if I may ask?

There is no ban from the German government preventing players to sign up at gambling websites. The German players are free to sign up wherever they like.
It's the casinos/bookmakers themselves who have to decide if they accept German players. Some do, some don't. It's really kinda 70/30. Officially they need to hold a license and some do, while many also simply offer their services when they don't hold a license.
In the crypto scene most bookmakers/casinos do accept Germans. In fact the only one who does not accept them (apart from now Buff) is Sportsbet.io
All the others (FortuneJack, Stake, Betcoin, Playbetr, Nitrobetting, Nitrogen and so on) do accept Germans.
So I am not in breach of German law trying to register on bookmakers/casinos.

And ofcourse, if the bookmaker/casino does not want users from my location, then I won't register. In the case of Buff however I asked and they said I was welcome.
Btw, the first URL you posted about banning Germans is from 2007.
It's indeed true that on 1st of July 2021 some sort of a new law came into effect. It's about casinos, not bookmakers and simply means they can now apply for licenses (which they could not until 1st July, at that point there were only rules for sportsbetting and casinos were all a grey zone up until then) to legally offer casino games. If this was the trigger for Buff to stop offering their services somehow....fine....but they should have told all their German customers to withdraw their funds and after that they could close the accounts. Now they did nothing and roughly 50 days after this July 1st date suddenly confiscated all my funds.

if there is an online gambling ban by the German government, why are you trying to register at casinos that don’t want users from there?
I find this about banning online gambling, for example Germany Set to Ban Online Gambling as of January
But there is some changes in July 2021 Germany’s new regulations will finally allow online casino licensing in 2021

I saw for example Sportsbet.io was accused of illegally accepting users from countries with similar regulations here so, they are also decided to do not to permit accounts to be opened or used by customers resident in France, Germany etc...  https://sportsbet.io/about/terms-and-conditions
hence it is only an adaptation to the laws of certain states.

certainly, in this case, Buff.bet should not allow any possibility of registration of users from restricted zones.
I would like to see what they have to say here before support this flag.

Flag (type 2) against Buff88 supported: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2815
I've tagged Buff88 and eGoldgg.
Flag (type 1) against eGoldgg supported: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2817

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Buff88 ignored most posts about this scam accusation in their topic, and continued to post large promotions to "make it disappear".

@GekkeBelg: Please leave negative feedback and create a Flag (from their Trust page) against Buff88 and eGoldgg. The former seems to be a Buff.bet representative, the latter has created their main topic and needs a Flag for a warning to show up in their topic. It certainly deserves a type 1 Flag, and possibly a type 3 Flag. The only doubt I have is that I'm not sure about the relations between the accounts involved.

Note that eGoldgg was online today after being offline for more than 2 years, but didn't comment on this.

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I'll quote my posts from their thread:

Hello,

I wanted to sign up at Buff.bet in August 2020 but to my surprise I saw that in their terms Germany was mentioned in the list of countries where they "do not offer their services to". This is strange cause it's not listed as a forbidden country on the license page with their regulator Curacao Gaming, as you can see here:


So I went to the Bitcointalk forum topic of Buff and asked in there why they didn't accept Germans when basically all other crypto casinos do.
I was clearly told there that they make a difference between fiat and crypto customers. With Fiat you cannot sign up as a German, but with crypto it's allowed:


Then a couple months later another Bitcointalk user also asked something about this topic, and here it was confirmed once more by Buff that with crypto any countries are allowed to register, including USA and Germany for example:


This was also confirmed on their website by the fact that German IP-addresses were not blocked and you can select Germany on the list of countries when registering with crypto. When you select fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany however does not appear on the country list. These 2 facts are shown in the following 2 screenshots:



So to me it was clear that I was allowed to register a crypto account and I went ahead. I gambled there without problems for some months, but after a couple of months, in February 2021, I had to do an extensive KYC. I had to send in all kind of documents, utility bills, passport next to my face etc and even do a video verification. I passed all of these verifications and my account was verified as you can see:


They ofcourse knew very well that I was from Germany as it was all over my documents and they approved them. So after this things went well for another couple months, until last week I suddenly had to do another KYC when my withdrawal was rejected. I was surprised because I have never had to do a KYC twice at any casino/bookmaker, but okay I went ahead and sent them all they asked for. Then, the following day I could not log in anymore and now my account is closed:


In an email I was told all my funds (399.65 mbtc) were confiscated for violating the restricted countries terms:


I think this is all very unfair. If they say they accept crypto currency accounts from Germany, I should be able to believe their word. If their website is not IP-blocked for Germany and it's listed as a country when signing up, it clearly indicates that it's allowed to sign up. Next to this their regulator does not forbid registrations from Germany. Also, a little side note is that in their terms they have the following rule listed: "Additionally, Universal Monsters series are only available in these countries: and then a list follows with countries, including Germany! So how come this game is available for German customers when they are supposed to not be even able to register? See screenshot:


And most importantly, all this time they knew very well I was from Germany as they verified my account via an extensive KYC. At no point did they let me know it was not allowed to gamble with crypto from Germany. If at any point something changed in the regulation of Germany, they should a) block German IP-addresses b) remove Germany from the list of countries at the registration process and c) send me an email or notify me otherwise that I am no longer welcome.
And ofcourse at the point they stopped accepting Germans, this is where they should pay me out my remaining balance and after that close the account. That is the only right way, and that is how basically all casinos/bookmakers act in such a situation.
They cannot just confiscate it all. I feel like I am really being robbed here. I have given Buff several days to correct this mistake. On my emails they never responded and in the forum topic I am basically being ignored.
I hope this topic wakes Buff up and they still do the right thing by letting me log in one more time and giving me the chance to withdraw my balance. It's fine that they stop accepting German customers, this is their own choice, but they cannot just confiscate the balance.
If this topic also doesn't help I will contact a lawyer in Curacao to start legal proceedings against Buff. Because I am convinced I have an extremely high chance to win this case as the fact are so crystal clear here.

This is the Buff topic in bitcointalk forum btw: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/buffbet-in-play-esports-sports-casino-btc-eth-and-litecoin-accepted-3309139

I created flags against the creator of the Buff topic called eGoldgg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2816
and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1208890
and the representative in there, called Buff88: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2815