Topic: Bumping changes on some boards - page 11. (Read 8893 times)

That's pretty much the idea here. Multiple high-merit users - if you can get them interested in davecoin - constantly (keep in mind the 36-hour decay) posting in your thread or super-bumping it would result in a higher bump score, vs newbie spam farms bumping threads with fake "conversations". It's possible to game the system but it seems that it would be quite hard to do so and you still have to compete with popular projects that "organically" have high bump scores.

Some are already using their powerbumps to bump shitcoins, it would appear. Some people have no shame!

Also its funny to see 3 Piston Honda comments on the first Alt ANN page 

I'm already enjoying this quite a bit.

I love it, it's like we have three new board with really valuable information that I can peruse.  I even found some threads worth reading at the top of the Altcoin Ann board.

The only trouble is I'm tempted to reply to threads that haven't seen daylight since 2015... 

The weather forecast discussions that took place in several threads were the lowest of the low type of bumping along with the one word posts in their fake conversations.

Got to laugh at spambies though  





I have some concerns too if I am reading and interpreting the OP correctly.

I am not sure if those having higher ranks should automatically be given a more powerful voice by default. There can be a mechanism in place to select users as representatives by a vote based system but this should be fair and consistent if implemented.

Scammers will always find a way around any form of censorship so that should be at the forefront of the debate.

The incremental advantage to being a long time member stops at one year in relation to their ability to bump after a year. I don’t think it is unreasonable to give those who have been around less than a year a disadvantage for these types of threads. This favors more established businesses who are less likely to end in losses to customers.

Longer time user = more advantage in bumping with no other consideration would be okay. There is a very very strong merit anchor to their advantage. So some of the devs there will not be able to bump their own threads and they are the most important announcements.

Legend members need earned merits or they are noobs now.

Merit is becoming a very financially rewarding metric to game and it is wide open to gaming. You really want old members that also have LOTS of earned merits if you want to push your project regardless of whether they make good posts or are valuable real members of your community. CHipmixer is going to do well and so are any projects pushed by the SAME GANG. This is going to push scampaign managers to not even bother with manual review of posting quality now.... projects will want MORE MERITS pushers now regardless of whether their posts are good or not. This defeats any idea of getting campaign managers to review people manually for post quality and trust not just accept gamed metrics. The projects will insist they suck up the gamed merits score junk.

It is good activity is at least included here, but merit is given too much weight again.

junior with some small earned recent merits now trumps legend developer even regular posting legend devs who just don't get much merits because merit sources " don't bother with the alt sections according to them since they have them on ignore " lol

We best get the devs of any projects and their key community members over to meta board to apply for merit source or at least get feltching for merits.

While the side effect may be providing long time users with an advantage, ultimately I think the primary goal is to restrict new users, simply based on the fact that it is simpler to set up sock puppets on newer accounts to spam. I am sure if it was possible to prevent abuse otherwise, Theymos would let noobs post without even logging in. Sadly that is not possible.

Mt. Gox thread is up there as well, so it balances out.

Lol, until I read your post, I didn't even realize that thread is on a board that's influenced by these changes. And indeed, it's on top of Service Announcement.
I posted there before realizing it uses my new bumping power.

Hmm, I don't think we have enough to fill a full-page, and the ones that have proven themselves have fled and are running their own forums, giving little attention to their original ann that made them famous.


The cost thing is a bit different here, or at least in my opinion.
Trying to bump a topic requires money, sabotaging the alt board requires hate.
And there is a lot of hate for shitcoins (yeah, I won't play the innocent kitty card here), and most of it comes from older members with a lot of bumping power...

And speaking of power, is it something wrong with my internet (I'm on 2g near a mountain top  ) or the topic bumped my marlboroza is still the second one on that page and the one he "mini bumped if I understand the term correctly is 4th?

Also, one tiny request to our friendly AIs, although I'm pretty sure we will see the stats soon, can somebody log the activity in the new boards so we can see the impact? If there will be any, of course.

85 times actually, but it decreases with every super bump.

It is possible and it could create mess. Imagine, first 4-5 pages filled with old dead threads.

Solution for this could be to not allow "old bumps", for example, making bump button unavailable for threads which are older than X months/years and/or no one posted anything in last X months/years.

I am going to report you to your signature manager right now 

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Or really, any ANN from a company where more senior members here have a vested interest in bumping the topic..?

Maybe an unintentional side effect, but that's really a massive advantage that they'd get over other companies/etc.
Or not... I don't know.

Bitcointalk seems to become more and more of an esoteric meritocracy.. Where people with higher ranks, or those who spent more time here, now also have a more powerful voice? Hmm. (Or am i understanding this wrong?)

As much as i disliked these threads with account farmers talking to each other, i don't know if such drastic measures are warranted, or if this is the right direction for Bitcointalk to move towards to. (Although i must admit: i haven't visited the altcoin boards in a long time, if ever.)

I just checked the last page of some topics that are on the top of Announcements (Altcoins) board. Except a few ones, all of them include posts by high-merit users. Now at the time of writing a random topic which has posted in 2014 and has not received any reply is on the second place. I think one of high-merit users has bumped that only for testing. (It's great that it is affected only in 36 hours)
It's great that I can see the threads that are of interest to high-merit users.

two suggestions:
-Now the effect of clicking on the "bump" button is 15 times the effect of making a post on a thread. As a user can give bump score to a thread once per 24 hours by clicking on "bump" button and once per 7 days by making a post, the effect of clicking on the "bump" is much more.
I suggest to decrease the effect of super bumps.
-A bad review shouldn't help a thread bump. So, users should be allowed to make posts on threads without giving them bump score.

Edit: Now it's really difficult for new topics to be on the top. I think the effect of topic starter can be considered more. In this case, If a thread is started by a high-merit user, it has a more chance to be on top at least for 36 hours.

Sounds even more costly than keeping one thread bumped to the front page so I'd say it's unlikely but TBH what possible "new" project could genuinely be worth to be up there? If something truly innovative comes along (like Ethereum, Grin, etc) I'm sure there will be enough support to push it up.

Do you think this is the best solution?



1/ Some of the smartest and capable devs in the alt section don't acquire much merit at all, some have hardly any. When they post an important announcement like fork or even something more time dependent then this will maybe not even bump the thread to the top or at all?

2/ Some people who like to unjustly attack and derail threads often are held back because they have to weigh this against bumping the thread and giving attention to it. Now they can do this by just registering an alt account and not worry about  the bumping aspect. Competing projects can just derail and keep spamming their "better projects" without worrying about bumping the opponents thread.

3/ MORE (untrustworthy and selfish reasons) negative and bogus reasons to apply merit to certain members who promote your fav projects now. The more financial incentive we keep giving to abuse merit (well you can't even abuse it in it's current form since it is totally subjective and even when the post is debunked clearly people still apply merits because they want it to be true ) the more it will just become used for selfish gain and nothing to do really with the objective MERIT of the post.

Seems rather crazy to keep heaping financial rewards on those that abuse the merit system successfully.

While merit is not anywhere near a reliable or safe metric we need to reduce dependency on those scores to the max.

The only objective metric we have is activity. Activity takes "the min same time" for everyone to accrue. Activity needs to be given max reward for positive and max punishment for negative behavior. You try to base anything off of a subjective easily gamed metrics alone and at the same time place reward  for successful gaming of it = folly.

Solve one problem, more problems will appear.

Get the foundation layer you are trying to build things on top of solid first and at least difficult to abuse first. You are building on quicksand right now.

There is no solution as good as an objective standard of moderation and rewarding and punishing of a  NON gameable  objective metric like activity. Use the min time required for all members to gain high activity as the basis for these systems. Merit is broken what more proof could you have than meta board lol.  

Higher activity higher bump power - with under 50 having zero. A small merit weighting.
Get caught in fake conversations ( a sensible and effective activity reduction and sigs turned off for a year)

Let's get merit to a standard that it actually represents anything tangible before we start giving more incentive to game it.

That's our suggestion. However, since you have not seemed to realize clearly that merit is used to create echo chambers and serve as a tool to ensure those controlling it use it for their own personal financial gain then we know it is near pointless to expect any kind of reasoned debate on it.

It is likely less dangerous to allow anarchy than to concentrate power and governance to a tight knit circle of proven scammers and trust/merit abusers. These are free now to increase their own power in many effective ways and punish in many effective ways any that dare to notice, accountable only to themselves. Thread bumping payments will be the next thing meta board gang will be into.

A for effort
D for net positive effect

probably better than doing nothing... perhaps.

Sorry just our honest opinion. Why not recognize merit is not a reliable metric and is actually dangerous?

It is possible we are not fully getting this new proposal this time, so feel free to debunk these points, since we are open to finding the optimal solution.

Hmm, this got me thinking a bit, especially because of the not locked part.

It will cost spammers a lot to bump their topics now, they will have to get merit, try to bribe members who normally won't risk their status for a scammy shitcoin...but, is something like let's call it the opposite also possible?

So, in this scenario older members with a lot of merits would bump old topics from now-defunct or not interesting coins purely out of spite for shitcoins (yeah I call them shitcoins, not altcoins or tokens) so that no new project will be able to make it to the first or even second page, thus sabotaging the entire board?



 

Yep.

~30 high-merit accounts does sound very costly, close to impossible.. I think most people are lucky to have a single account with any significant amount of merit, and this is merit earned in the last year, so old farmed merit will go out of date and they will have to keep farming 30 accounts with fresh merit..
What they will need is a constant stream of fresh merit to retain their bumping power..

I think this also means your last years accumulated activity, like you have to have actually hit all of the activity periods in the last year to get your 365 max..


I think Theymos could add a way to sage your post if he wanted to..


It's getting to the point to where one needs to be quite educated in all of these systems to really understand how the forum works.. The users manual is getting thick but it's not even all in one manual.. Also the evil system, ranks and badges, account recoveries, captcha bypass, etc. before you even get into forum etiquette..
I don't mind this really.. It's another way to distinguish who has put in the time and effort to get to and stay in the know about it all, but past the point where I would expect any but the top users to understand everything..

Bitcointalk function quizzes sound fun, something like https://play.howstuffworks.com/quiz/can-you-name-these-engine-parts-a-onesentence-description..

Certainly they will try, but it will be much more difficult than before, which is what is important.


Was it this one by any chance?



I saw it and thought, hmm, maybe there's a bug introduced somehow, because the OP didn't bump it.