BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!) - page 40.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: b!z on January 24, 2015, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on January 24, 2015, 08:51:49 PM

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

So you're saying it's impossible to avoid trading bitcoins without a license? I sincerely hope you're joking.

I sincerely think you're not a multi-millionaire who can afford bribery and bribery by every other name.

Blazr

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Quote from: b!z on January 24, 2015, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on January 24, 2015, 08:51:49 PM

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

So you're saying it's impossible to avoid trading bitcoins without a license? I sincerely hope you're joking.

To sum it up it's illegal to sell Bitcoins as a business without a money transmitter license.

Selling your own personal Bitcoins with a small fee is probably OK, but if you're selling Bitcoins for someone else, or you're selling very large amounts, then you're probably a business, but I'm not a lawyer or an expert in this kinda thing.

saddambitcoin

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Quote from: mayax on January 24, 2015, 09:10:43 PM

Quote from: ScryptAsic on January 24, 2015, 08:39:08 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 24, 2015, 08:29:46 PM

Quote from: saddambitcoin on January 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

A prosecutor would likely have a hard time convincing a jury
that a few transactions is running a business.

However, a large number of transactions is another story.

Unfortunately, if you are going to be doing a lot of
trading, you need to use a legitimate exchange
to keep your nose clean.

I consider this an assault on individual rights as
one should be free to transact voluntarily with
other individuals, but that's the current reality.

You are generally considered to be a MSB regardless if you are an actual "business" as long as you engage in the practice of "transmitting money" (which is a complex concept.

I think even if you are operating without a MSB license you will most likely (IMO) be legally safe as long as you do not knowingly transmit money for people who are breaking the law (for example proceeding with a transaction after being told the funds were from some illegal activity)

correct. as MSB you are covered IF you make due diligence. But if you are not MSB you are not safe at all. you break the law by transmitting money without license. I really do not understand why this guy risked so much....also, others are doing the same... hard to understand what's in their mind.

To get bitcoin to this point where we are today, thousands of people were trading BTC for cash before there was "regulatory guidance". So, now that some people say don't do it - we should all stop? No.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: b!z on January 24, 2015, 09:29:02 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on January 24, 2015, 08:51:49 PM

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

So you're saying it's impossible to avoid trading bitcoins without a license? I sincerely hope you're joking.

You can easily trade bitcoins on an exchange without a license.

But when you do it through LBC, you can be seen as "being the unliscenced exchange",
which is what happened to those guys in Florida.

b!z

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Activity: 1582

Merit: 1010

Quote from: TheButterZone on January 24, 2015, 08:51:49 PM

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

So you're saying it's impossible to avoid trading bitcoins without a license? I sincerely hope you're joking.

ScryptAsic

hero member

Activity: 647

Merit: 501

GainerCoin.com 🔥 Masternode coin 🔥

Quote from: mayax on January 24, 2015, 09:10:43 PM

Quote from: ScryptAsic on January 24, 2015, 08:39:08 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 24, 2015, 08:29:46 PM

Quote from: saddambitcoin on January 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

A prosecutor would likely have a hard time convincing a jury
that a few transactions is running a business.

However, a large number of transactions is another story.

Unfortunately, if you are going to be doing a lot of
trading, you need to use a legitimate exchange
to keep your nose clean.

I consider this an assault on individual rights as
one should be free to transact voluntarily with
other individuals, but that's the current reality.

You are generally considered to be a MSB regardless if you are an actual "business" as long as you engage in the practice of "transmitting money" (which is a complex concept.

I think even if you are operating without a MSB license you will most likely (IMO) be legally safe as long as you do not knowingly transmit money for people who are breaking the law (for example proceeding with a transaction after being told the funds were from some illegal activity)

correct. as MSB you are covered IF you make due diligence. But if you are not MSB you are not safe at all. you break the law by transmitting money without license. I really do not understand why this guy risked so much....also, others are doing the same... hard to understand what's in their mind.

They probably don't understand the risks, consequences nor the law covering MSB's. All of which are very complicated. While the potential for profit is very large for people who are trading on LBC as the margins tend to be very high

seriouscoin

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Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Quote from: Tdowns on January 24, 2015, 10:27:01 AM

Was he arrested only because of selling bitcoins for cash ?

why would selling bitcoins be a charge? can you be more stupid? read this thread again.

mayax

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Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: ScryptAsic on January 24, 2015, 08:39:08 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 24, 2015, 08:29:46 PM

Quote from: saddambitcoin on January 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

A prosecutor would likely have a hard time convincing a jury
that a few transactions is running a business.

However, a large number of transactions is another story.

Unfortunately, if you are going to be doing a lot of
trading, you need to use a legitimate exchange
to keep your nose clean.

I consider this an assault on individual rights as
one should be free to transact voluntarily with
other individuals, but that's the current reality.

You are generally considered to be a MSB regardless if you are an actual "business" as long as you engage in the practice of "transmitting money" (which is a complex concept.

I think even if you are operating without a MSB license you will most likely (IMO) be legally safe as long as you do not knowingly transmit money for people who are breaking the law (for example proceeding with a transaction after being told the funds were from some illegal activity)

correct. as MSB you are covered IF you make due diligence. But if you are not MSB you are not safe at all. you break the law by transmitting money without license. I really do not understand why this guy risked so much....also, others are doing the same... hard to understand what's in their mind.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

ScryptAsic

hero member

Activity: 647

Merit: 501

GainerCoin.com 🔥 Masternode coin 🔥

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 24, 2015, 08:29:46 PM

Quote from: saddambitcoin on January 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

A prosecutor would likely have a hard time convincing a jury
that a few transactions is running a business.

However, a large number of transactions is another story.

Unfortunately, if you are going to be doing a lot of
trading, you need to use a legitimate exchange
to keep your nose clean.

I consider this an assault on individual rights as
one should be free to transact voluntarily with
other individuals, but that's the current reality.

You are generally considered to be a MSB regardless if you are an actual "business" as long as you engage in the practice of "transmitting money" (which is a complex concept.

I think even if you are operating without a MSB license you will most likely (IMO) be legally safe as long as you do not knowingly transmit money for people who are breaking the law (for example proceeding with a transaction after being told the funds were from some illegal activity)

jonald_fyookball

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1008

Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: saddambitcoin on January 24, 2015, 07:26:55 PM

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

A prosecutor would likely have a hard time convincing a jury
that a few transactions is running a business.

However, a large number of transactions is another story.

Unfortunately, if you are going to be doing a lot of
trading, you need to use a legitimate exchange
to keep your nose clean.

I consider this an assault on individual rights as
one should be free to transact voluntarily with
other individuals, but that's the current reality.

saddambitcoin

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1004

Quote from: freebit13 on January 24, 2015, 01:17:43 AM

From the document, it doesn't look like this was from simple face to face transactions using localbitcoins... it looks like he was somehow involved with running an exchange.

Unfortunately I think the gov sees face to face transactions using localbitcoins as "running an exchange".

Even the LBC site gives you tips on how to "run a bitcoin cash exchange for fun and profit".

It is a shame that he faces time in prison for allegedly doing something so harmless.

saddambitcoin

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1004

burtw.com seems legit to me.

The "What Happened" section of burtw.com says to contact someone at jmwagner.com.

whois for jmwagner.com:

Code:

Registrant Name: Burt Wagner
Registrant Organization: Deadline Specialists, Inc.
Registrant Street: Post Office Box 18985
Registrant City: Boulder
Registrant State/Province: Colorado
Registrant Postal Code: 80308
Registrant Country: United States
Registrant Phone: +1.303******

Remember remember the 5th of November

legendary

Activity: 1862

Merit: 1011

Reverse engineer from time to time

Looks like Wagners always make the wrong choices. Anyone remember Bruce Wagner and the MyBitcoin scam?

caga

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: PaulPierce on January 24, 2015, 07:57:47 AM

Quote from: smoothie on January 24, 2015, 12:36:40 AM

Here it is:

Quote

BURTON WAGNER,
did knowingly conduct, control, manage, supervise, direct, or own all or part of an unlicensed money transmitting business affecting interstate and foreign commerce, to wit, a digital currency exchange business which (A) operated without an appropriate money transmitting license in a state where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or felony under state law; (B) failed to comply with the money transmitting business regulations under Section 5330 of Title 31, United States Code, and regulations prescribed thereunder; and (C) involved the transport and transmission of funds that were known to the defendant to have been derived from a criminal offense

that is going to be hard to escape! need some really really good lawyer!

Better call Saul!! Wink

lol, its not a joke. Its a serious matter. He was a good member.

nextgencoin

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Activity: 1106

Merit: 1000

I just sold out my Polinex coins once I saw today its US based. Maybe its legal but I want to be away from the US government, they can change the rules as they want.

btcshiner

full member

Activity: 478

Merit: 125

Quote from: mayax on January 24, 2015, 11:58:20 AM

Quote from: Tdowns on January 24, 2015, 10:27:01 AM

Was he arrested only because of selling bitcoins for cash ?

yes, you need to be licensed for that. All the US exchangers(the companies) will be under investigation very soon. it's illegal what they are ALL doing. Even the "big" ones are illegal. You will wonder how it is possible.

Well, think about how many big exchangers were closed during the time (Tradehill, Bitinstant, BitFloor and others). Coinbase and BitPay will be next(few months...maybe less). Stay tunned !

I don't think Coinbase will be closed. It's registered and licensed as an MSB. Bitpay to I believe.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: Blazr on January 24, 2015, 11:45:58 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 24, 2015, 09:59:23 AM

I'm not so sure. If you were sitting at that round table, wouldn't you ask how he was able to pay those kind of returns? I asked him a few times in threads here way before that meeting. I accused him of using the money for drug trade because that's the only business that could promise those kind of returns and not be a complete fraud. I would have been asking that question before I said hello. I think by the time they all met every one of them knew it was a ponzi. I think one of the reasons for the meet up was to keep them in line and moving forward with the plan. That means there are more arrests pending.

Pirateat40 told people he was daytrading, he even crashed the Bitcoin price at one point live on IRC to try and convince people he was earning lots from trading. I honestly think that at least some of the people sitting at that table didn't know what was going on, IIRC some of the PPT owners reported the scheme to the SEC once it was over and their statements were used against pirate in court. In fact, IIRC some of them claim to have lost money due to pirate.

The indictment against BurtW doesn't mention anything about a ponzi, passthrus or anything, it says he was selling Bitcoins as a business (not selling his own personal coins or selling significant volumes) without a license and that he sold Bitcoins to a person whom he knew was going to commit illegal activity with them. So I don't think it's related to the PPT's.

Whether they knew or not, they still might have been placed on a watch list and tracked. If you watch someone long enough you will see them commit a crime. It may not be related to the PPTs directly or at all. He could just be really unlucky or maybe it's simply a case of poetic justice.

mayax

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: Tdowns on January 24, 2015, 10:27:01 AM

Was he arrested only because of selling bitcoins for cash ?

yes, you need to be licensed for that. All the US exchangers(the companies) will be under investigation very soon. it's illegal what they are ALL doing. Even the "big" ones are illegal. You will wonder how it is possible.

Well, think about how many big exchangers were closed during the time (Tradehill, Bitinstant, BitFloor and others). Coinbase and BitPay will be next(few months...maybe less). Stay tunned !

Blazr

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 1006

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 24, 2015, 09:59:23 AM

I'm not so sure. If you were sitting at that round table, wouldn't you ask how he was able to pay those kind of returns? I asked him a few times in threads here way before that meeting. I accused him of using the money for drug trade because that's the only business that could promise those kind of returns and not be a complete fraud. I would have been asking that question before I said hello. I think by the time they all met every one of them knew it was a ponzi. I think one of the reasons for the meet up was to keep them in line and moving forward with the plan. That means there are more arrests pending.

Pirateat40 told people he was daytrading, he even crashed the Bitcoin price at one point live on IRC to try and convince people he was earning lots from trading. I honestly think that at least some of the people sitting at that table didn't know what was going on, IIRC some of the PPT owners reported the scheme to the SEC once it was over and their statements were used against pirate in court. In fact, IIRC some of them claim to have lost money due to pirate.

The indictment against BurtW doesn't mention anything about a ponzi, passthrus or anything, it says he was selling Bitcoins as a business (not selling his own personal coins or selling significant volumes) without a license and that he sold Bitcoins to a person whom he knew was going to commit illegal activity with them. So I don't think it's related to the PPT's.

Topic: BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!) - page 40. (Read 74714 times)