bustabit – The original crash game - page 83.

RHavar

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Quote from: JasonFC on September 29, 2019, 03:41:50 PM

In terms of absolute bankroll growth, I'm sure yours excels, but in terms of percentage growth, maybe not. bustabit remains a great investment, but for smaller fish looking for a growth opportunity, bustabit has become 50% less attractive.

Hmm, I don't think that's the way investors look at it -- or at least not how I do.

When I look at a bankroll investment, I try calculate if I invest X ... what is my expected return? What is the expected variance? And how would I (roughly) quantify the counter-party risk (i.e. malicious or screw up sort of problems).

---

So trying to do rough calculations against BaB, I'd eye-ball the average volume as 400 BTC/day, which would give investors (after commission) an expected 730 BTC per year. 1 BTC would buy you ~0.015279% of the bankroll, so an investment has a rough expected return of 11.15% a year?

So it's considerably worse than yesterday (which was double that) and even less than when i originally invested (I was estimating 30-40% p.a. returns) but counter-party risk is the real thing that scares me (i.e. is the real reason I have only invested a small fraction of my bitcoin in the bankroll and not the whole thing).

I also think all the smart investors appreciate the importance of diversification (especially in something ultra-high-risk like bitcoin-casino-bankrolling) so I imagine it's going to more just be an issue of changing how much they invest, as opposed to investing or not investing.

JasonFC

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Quote from: devans on September 29, 2019, 02:50:37 PM

Quote from: JasonFC on September 29, 2019, 02:05:47 PM

It's an interesting change, which appears to me to be purely motivated by making more money. Nothing wrong with that, of course (and I'm sure bustabit and investing in the bankroll will remain profitable for years to come). However, 50% is squeezing investors a bit, and it hamstrings the potential significantly. bustabit has been my go-to recommendation for Bitcoin investing, but it appears I may have to reconsider. I'll be divesting my small stake in bustabit and deploying it back into flashflip, which keeps the commission model (thus giving investors a 25% greater expected profit on each coin wagered).

Nevertheless, good luck with everything.

Their EV isn't investors' only consideration when choosing a casino. A casino might have more favorable investment terms than another and still offer less expected bankroll growth if it can't match its competitor's wager volume. And in terms of wager volume, bustabit is one of the most popular Bitcoin casinos today. I couldn't find your game's wager volume anywhere but I'm confident that in terms of expected bankroll growth bustabit is still very much competitive despite the lower EV.

With that in mind, I don't believe that 50% is unreasonable at all and bustabit is still a very attractive investment.

In terms of absolute bankroll growth, I'm sure yours excels, but in terms of percentage growth, maybe not. bustabit remains a great investment, but for smaller fish looking for a growth opportunity, bustabit has become 50% less attractive.

Also, the iPhone is one of the best products out there, and Apple charging $1,800 instead of $900 isn't unreasonable, but it's definitely a fuck you to consumers.

devans

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Quote from: JasonFC on September 29, 2019, 02:05:47 PM

It's an interesting change, which appears to me to be purely motivated by making more money. Nothing wrong with that, of course (and I'm sure bustabit and investing in the bankroll will remain profitable for years to come). However, 50% is squeezing investors a bit, and it hamstrings the potential significantly. bustabit has been my go-to recommendation for Bitcoin investing, but it appears I may have to reconsider. I'll be divesting my small stake in bustabit and deploying it back into flashflip, which keeps the commission model (thus giving investors a 25% greater expected profit on each coin wagered).

Nevertheless, good luck with everything.

Their EV isn't investors' only consideration when choosing a casino. A casino might have more favorable investment terms than another and still offer less expected bankroll growth if it can't match its competitor's wager volume. And in terms of wager volume, bustabit is one of the most popular Bitcoin casinos today. I couldn't find your game's wager volume anywhere but I'm confident that in terms of expected bankroll growth bustabit is still very much competitive despite the lower EV.

With that in mind, I don't believe that 50% is unreasonable at all and bustabit is still a very attractive investment.

JasonFC

member

Activity: 85

Merit: 28

It's an interesting change, which appears to me to be purely motivated by making more money. Nothing wrong with that, of course (and I'm sure bustabit and investing in the bankroll will remain profitable for years to come). However, 50% is squeezing investors a bit, and it hamstrings the potential significantly. bustabit has been my go-to recommendation for Bitcoin investing, but it appears I may have to reconsider. I'll be divesting my small stake in bustabit and deploying it back into flashflip, which keeps the commission model (thus giving investors a 25% greater expected profit on each coin wagered).

Nevertheless, good luck with everything.

devans

sr. member

Activity: 528

Merit: 368

Quote from: malevolent on September 29, 2019, 01:16:06 PM

"Return to Player (v2 only)" and "Commission" fields on the statistics page need to be updated. Looks like having offsite bankroll is even more attractive.

I've just deployed a fix for that issue. Thanks! 👍

Why do you say that having an offsite bankroll became more attractive? As with the previous commission structure, an offsite investment also increases both your share of the profits as well as the losses (including to the commission) equally.

malevolent

legendary

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"Return to Player (v2 only)" and "Commission" fields on the statistics page need to be updated. Looks like having offsite bankroll is even more attractive.

Quote from: Pali on September 29, 2019, 01:08:03 PM

Probably something you get asked a lot today but what made you change the investment scheme to this? Like what is the reason(s)?

It's the best cryptocurrency gambling site on the market for both players and investors alike, it's unsurprising that devans would like to capitalize on that.

Pali

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Quote from: devans on September 29, 2019, 12:45:28 PM

Effective immediately bustabit will charge the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustabit will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustabit would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

Hey,

Probably something you get asked a lot today but what made you change the investment scheme to this? Like what is the reason(s)?

Regards,
Paladin.

devans

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Activity: 528

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Effective immediately bustabit will charge the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustabit will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustabit would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

JollyGood

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Top Crypto Casino

Quote from: devans on September 24, 2019, 01:45:54 AM

Quote from: chazley on September 23, 2019, 12:19:46 PM

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?

Correct, bustabit never has and never will seize users' funds unless it's legally compelled to by a lawful court order. The only minor correction is that bustabit complies with all lawful court orders, not just those from a user's country of residence.

That being said, since you are from a prohibited jurisdiction I'm afraid I have to ask you to withdraw your funds and stop using bustabit and bustadice.

Thank you for the clarity.

Others have used those as excuses to selective scam users and leaving their funds in limbo but you have made it clear that is not the case with Bustabit/Bustadice.

devans

sr. member

Activity: 528

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Quote from: chazley on September 23, 2019, 12:19:46 PM

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?

Correct, bustabit never has and never will seize users' funds unless it's legally compelled to by a lawful court order. The only minor correction is that bustabit complies with all lawful court orders, not just those from a user's country of residence.

That being said, since you are from a prohibited jurisdiction I'm afraid I have to ask you to withdraw your funds and stop using bustabit and bustadice.

RHavar

legendary

Activity: 1463

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Quote from: malevolent on September 24, 2019, 12:35:34 AM

I don't remember there being any other ToS, either anywhere on the site or for new users (?), the one that popped-up on bustabit and bustadice is the first one I ever saw.

I am pretty sure that I remember to register an account, there was something like "I have read and agree to the terms of service". I think the popup we all just saw is for users who have agreed to the old ToS to let them know there's now a new one. I can't find an archive of the old ToS, but if my memory is correct the only substantial is the account recycling?

Since everyone is talking about ToS, the one thing I feel is missing is an official policy on how investors are exposed to things like mistakes/hacks. For instance, there was that bug in the API that allowed someone to find out the current-game multiplier and bustabit paid for it (150 btc?) instead of investors. Is that an official policy? Presumedly if the loss was too big, at some point bustabit couldn't/wouldn't be able to pay for it (as after all, the point of investors is to lower/eliminate risk). As an investor, it'd be nice to know if there's an official policy on handling situations like this.

malevolent

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I don't remember there being any other ToS, either anywhere on the site or for new users (?), the one that popped-up on bustabit and bustadice is the first one I ever saw.

chazley

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Merit: 264

Quote from: RHavar on September 23, 2019, 04:07:17 PM

I might be wrong here (I had trouble finding the old ToS), but I'm pretty sure the only new term is actually that about accounts being recycled after 2 years of no use. I don't think BaB has ever allowed US users (and other places where online gambling is illegal) and has always dealt with it by asking them to withdraw their balance and refrain from using it in the future. I think just the new ToS makes it a bit clearer (like right at the top, instead of buried in the middle).

I'd like this clarified by Devans, specifically about Bustadice.

RHavar

legendary

Activity: 1463

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I might be wrong here (I had trouble finding the old ToS), but I'm pretty sure the only new term is actually that about accounts being recycled after 2 years of no use. I don't think BaB has ever allowed US users (and other places where online gambling is illegal) and has always dealt with it by asking them to withdraw their balance and refrain from using it in the future. I think just the new ToS makes it a bit clearer (like right at the top, instead of buried in the middle).

GamblingSiteFinder

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gamblingsitefinder.com

While I don't like the changes, I understand that they needed to be made. Thank you for the detailed responses @Devans and an even bigger thank you for just being upfront and honest with us.

chazley

sr. member

Activity: 395

Merit: 264

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?

beerlover

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 20, 2019, 08:08:10 PM

There might be a way websites serving EU citizens would not need to comply with GDPR but as of yet I have not seen cases and as you rightly pointed out it might be more complicated than the manner in which I put it. Some clarity on legality would be appreciated by users who might read this post.

From what I recall, any website that stores any information on EU citizens that reside inside the EU must comply. So for example an EU citizen holding a passport from any EU country but living outside the EU would not be covered but the hundreds of millions living within the EU member states are covered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
https://gdpr.eu/checklist/
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3202771/general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr-requirements-deadlines-and-facts.html

And this is the golden rule so far as I could remember: "Any company that stores or processes personal information about EU citizens within EU states must comply with the GDPR, even if they do not have a business presence within the EU"

As excellent as both Bustadice and Bustabit are and as highly in regard as the community hold its owner, complying with GDPR and adding a cookie notification would only enhance credibility to those not familiar with the background of the websites. Adding those would not take anything away from the website or the user experience so maybe it is worth the OP thinking about.

The real trick is, what is the "personal information" is regarding? For example, is storing the emails and passwords attached to a username considered a personal information? Does it have to be KYC? If not then does bustabit requires KYC by the law so they have to ask for it, if they have to ask for it then does that mean they have to comply with GDPR?

This goes round and round between each other, I think since they are not asking for KYC as far as I know, they don't have to comply with other laws as well, as long as they are legit and not stealing money (which we all know they don't) there is no need to comply with any law regarding certain one area for now, maybe ban USA gamblers because it is illegal for them but all rest (including EU) seems fine so far.

Timetwister

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I see daily wagered dropping lately. Maybe running some kind of promotion could be worth it.

malevolent

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Quote from: M0w on September 21, 2019, 05:51:20 AM

I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not allowed to use this service. Does this also apply to investing?

According to the new ToS, yes it does:

Quote from: M0w on September 21, 2019, 05:51:20 AM

Does this mean I should withdraw all my funds? Is there any chance my account will be locked because I'm a Dutch resident?

It seems to me the chance is low, at least for now, quoting devans:

Quote

KYC check is only necessary if I have a specific reason to believe that someone is prohibited from using bustabit, e.g. if they themselves claim they are underage in chat. It's worth noting that due to the prevalence of VPNs, accessing bustabit from an IP address in a prohibited jurisdiction is not sufficient to trigger a KYC check.

Quote

If a user refuses or fails a KYC check we may restrict their account from further using the site, i.e. betting, investing and chatting, and demand that they withdraw their funds and refrain from using bustabit going forwards. Outside of extreme edge cases like being compelled to by a court order, bustabit will never prevent users from accessing their funds.

And again from the ToS:

Quote

The operator not insisting on one of his rights granted by these terms of service in one or more specific instances shall not preempt the operator from making use of this right in the future

They're a legal business with a gambling license and unfortunately there are certain requirements imposed on them if they want to keep the license. I think these requirements aren't new but they might not have previously been enforced by the licensing authority.

M0w

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I have not checked the entire topic but I just saw the message that users from certain countries are prohibited to use the service.

I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not allowed to use this service. Does this also apply to investing? I have been an investor since February but never actually gambled on this site.

Does this mean I should withdraw all my funds? Is there any chance my account will be locked because I'm a Dutch resident?

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