Topic: Calculating Satoshi's coins - page 2. (Read 1261 times)

The crypto exchange BitForex https://www.bitforex.com made an announcement:

The project related token ADAB has been hidden.

Please notice that assets holders are required to withdraw their assets to their own wallets or other exchanges by 11:00, August 9th, 2021 (GMT+8). BitForex will not support the withdrawal of these tokens/coins after that time.

Transaction fee: 999995.4639 ADAB

With 'like the Bitcoin network', we wanted to say: large network with pools and pool participants. And not PoW. It won't be decentralized but fair and transparent.

After solving a point, we will publish all parameters (public keys) for:

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)

Only the pools who calculated 'wild distinguished point' and 'tame distinguished point' can get the reward. We can't decide who receives the reward.

Even if we published

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + our point 1
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + our point 2

our points 1 and 2 would have to be distinguished points. And that is not possible unless we have the same calculating power like the network.

Then I guess it comes down to if you believe in the RIPEMD160 theory, doesn't it?

Then I am not sure what system/program you will use if you don't store points to check for collisions.

You say you want to set it up like bitcoin network.
In a typical PoW network, pools are formed, pools find blocks, pools are rewarded.   Normally, the larger pools find more blocks.  When a block is found, the network checks and validates if it's a valid hash/block.
In your platform, the largest pool may never get a reward/find a block. Only your system knows/validates if a point (block) is valid therefore, again, you can decide who receives the reward.

Theoretically, you are losing money while spending your processing power trying to, literally, attack the network.

The way bitcoin is designed that processing power would be better spent in the mining process itself, because the chances of getting a private key are ridiculously low.

As mentioned in the whitepaper:
https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf


There is also a second problem here.  Supposing you find a satoshi private key, that key is worth a LOT more than 50 bitcoins. You can literally prove yourself to be satoshi. How much would Faketoshi pay for this?

Certainly people like Faketoshi will be interested in a project like this. Is this the kind of partners you want? He is probably trying to do it already...

First two points are answered in the previous post.

You don't need that amount of data. The system we use is different than your Pollard's kangaroo what you use for the puzzle. The main problem is the speed of calculations ('hash rate/jump rate/key rate').

Yes, we will have loops (tame point will reach a tame point) but we have good solutions for that.

We have checked this. It is impossible as of today.




The public keys are 256 bit. What we wanted to say is, that it is a 2^128 calculations problem instead of 2^255, if you don't use Pollard or Rho.

Is it possible to argue that any public key address is 128 bits?

This tells me you do not know enough about Kangaroo and points

Again, it's not about volume, it's about tokens and price...25BTC would buy them all, in one swoop.

You do not understand the amount of data that will need to be stored

Lastly, kangaroo has its disadvantages with your approach.  Brute force would be much quicker in this case. How much quicker, around 2^38 quicker, now, go figure that one out.

It is a finite field, all points that jump over N, come back to the field and are useful.

The project is very large and we want participants to build pools. Once the project runs a while, pools will pop up and they will store that data.

Yes, today it would be so. But if the project starts, there will be enough volume, that will handle these 25 BTC.

As answered, pools will solve this.

You can be sure that pools, who understand the project, will provide you with the necessary data.

Not sure why you want to jump over N, but that is your programming choice. With a jump size of roughly 2^128 if you jump over N, those tame points will all become useless. The tames need to be higher than the wilds. If your tames are in a range less than 2^244, then that would be useless because the odds are, the private key is in at least the 248 to 256 bit range. 248 bit range allows for 2 leading 0s. So I don't see how you allowing jumps over/around N will make it faster.

If I am sending my points to a central server, how will I know what they are. Are you going to make every user store points on there on computer as well, and eat up 100s of 1000s of GB space?! I shouldn't be storing what the central server is storing therefore, I would have no private keys or points on my local machine to sign anything.


And the whole token thing, makes no sense.   25 BTC would buy all of those ADAB tokens and then some.

So if I am a user and don't help solve, I get nothing in return? Unless I own some ADAB tokens? Which by the way, they have all been sold, so people who aren't even participating/helping search for coins, will be rewarded, meanwhile the workers may not, because maybe there aren't any tokens to buy because people who bought them years ago aren't selling or are selling at extremely high price.

Also, by me not knowing or any user not knowing if they are searching for wilds or tames or anything, will never truly know if their point helped solve the key. You could program it where only you or your friends get the 25BTC reward, but if I am paid based on my contribution, then I know I will be compensated. Zero transparency with your platform. Imagine mining in a pool where you had no idea how much you would make because you didn't know total pool hashrate nor your own hashrate, you just trusted the pool operators. ha!

In the puzzle, you are calculating in a range. But in the project we will have the full range and here the system becomes faster. It will be different than Pollard's kangaroo or Rho like you use it, we will let them jump over N.

The participants won't know, if they are calculating tame or wild points. They will provide the central server, which we will have, with distinguished points (plus related private keys) and the system will check if there is a solution. If so, we will broadcast the distinguished points (wild + tame) and only the participants who solved it can sign and will receive their rewards (12.5 BTC each).

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)

Yeah, not sure what you are saying. Like, it really makes no sense.

You set the starting points? Or program randomly generates starting points? ok, well the program does (you can set the range) and the wild kangaroo you know the range released but no clue where they are at in the range because they are offset by the pubkey's private key amount.

You have the private keys? To all 2^128 points? Well hell, just sweep those coins now.

If I have the private key, why sign and send message? Why not just sweep the coins myself.

Tell me how what I see is wrong:

With Kangaroo, you have a range, in this case it would be from 0 to N-1, roughly 2^256.
The program will generate random starting points within that range for the tames and wilds to start their hops. So how do you plan on setting all the starting points? And how do you already have these private keys?
A tames point is actual pubkey and its distance is the actual private key to that pubkey.
A wilds point is a pubkey but the distance is offset by the pubkey you are searching for, private key.
The server or just the program if running on individual system, detects for a collision amongst the points, and then solves. How do you plan on running the system? A user would never know the points or distances they came across because their system should send it to a central server, along with every other participants points and distances, and the central server would look for collisions and solve. Users would never know if their point and distances found the collision.  So yeah, I am struggling to understand how your system intends to work.

Yes, you did some reading and understand that you can tame previous wilds. BUT doesn't mean it will necessarily be faster, it will depend on where a key was found and where the next one lies on the curve.

These addresses are special addresses (12 of them, there are ~100). They are the last coinbase addresses, before Satoshi resets his miner (the related values, like the ExtraNonce, go to 0). These points are on top of a blue line, which reflect Satoshi's coins. More here: https://bitslog.com/2019/04/16/the-return-of-the-deniers-and-the-revenge-of-patoshi/

ADAB wanted to build a crypto exchange and for a short time they had a running exchange but then closed it. We think that they had licensing problems. We know that projects in that region (ME) are high quality and that they have the required equipment. With that project, we invite them to join us.

After doing this, the token price would crash. Who would participate in that project thereafter? That would be a problem, if that project would solve all 'Satoshi's coins' at once. But the coins will be solved step by step, so we have to be carefull how we buy the tokens with the 25 BTC reward to keep the project running.

We will set the starting points of all tame and wild points, we will have the private keys. The participants will calculate the points on top of these. Who submitted the solving point will have the private keys of these, and can sign a message. So we can know who solved it.
Btw: All wild points of this part, after solving a key, will become tame points in the system. So the system will become faster even when the 'hash rate/jump rate/key rate' remains constant.

It will take a long time to solve the first 'Satoshi's coin' and the token would help the participants in that phase. The price of the token will reflect the success of the project and the probability when a 'Satoshi's coin' will be solved and the participating nodes can optimize their reward with that token. We think that this will work.

Ok, this all sounds great great but to use a token, ADAB, that is riddled with ridicule and scam, seems fishy.

Why not start your own eth token, easy to create.

Why use a token at all?

Pay people based on their hash rate/jump rate/key rate; whatever you want to call it, and split the entire 50 BTC amongst all people who contributed hashing power.
So you and your buds buy up the token now for cheap, then spread the 25 BTC over those tokens you picked up for cheap?

How would you even know who submitted the tame point that helped solve key and who submitted the wild point that helped solve the key? Do you honestly know how Kangaroo even works or are you just seeing that it is faster than brute force and want to implement it without really knowing how it works?!

There is a well known list with all of his "thought to be" addresses. I have the full uncompressed pubkey list, the compressed pubkey list, as well as uncompressed and compressed addresses. You posting a few addresses doesn't really prove anything other than you looked at the blockchain or googled it.

Bottom line, if one wants to do this, setup a server, set up a "Kangaroo pool" (like a mining pool), distribute found BTC amongst all people who helped based on their hashrate. Don't need a token, especially one with sketchy past.

edited 2nd post: some examples of Satoshi's addresses

People will not understand by your first and second posts.

You have to spell it out, explain the reason behind your math of 2^128. Explain you'll be using a Kangaroo method versus brute force. Explain how Kangaroo works vs brute force.

Don't leave it up to the people that do understand and have been a part of the puzzle, to pull it out of you and make passerby readers have to read down 30 posts to understand how you are going to try, etc.

Our opinion is, if people understand what we want to try, they will join us. As already said, the problem is not impossible - it is nearly impossible. But software and hardware can be optimized and with a large network, we should try it.

Haha, yeahhhhhhhh I am not new to the puzzle. Have been actively involved for over a year. I know how it works and how each key has been solved.

Then yes, you are talking group operations. Which sounds more logical than you just saying it becomes a 2^128 problem.

And don't clutter it with Satoshi's coins have x and y coords, that doesn't matter. Just say when a public key is exposed, you can use different methods than old school brute force method. Any address with public key exposed is susceptible to Kangaroo, not just his address because it has x and y coords.

Also, not saying this can't be done but you will have to have some powerful server equipment/setup.

1. so that many people can connect and join the hunt.
2. enough ram to combine files/collect points
  a. if you set a DP of say 60, you will have to store 2^60 points and distances (DP 60 will increase search time quite a bit)
  b. but if you go lower than 60, say down to 40, then you will need to store 2^80 points and distances
  c. with the 115 bit range, it took a file size of 300+ GBs to store all of the points and distances, and that was with a DP of 25

You will probably need at least 2 servers, maybe more. One to handle all connections and one to combine files and check for solved key

If you have a 2^100 bit public key

you will need ~2^100 calculations if you have a hashed key
you will need ~2^50 calculations if you have the coordinates and can use for example Pollard's kangaroo


That's the reason, why they solved #63 (hashed key) and #115 (key with coordinates) in the puzzle.