Topic: Can gambling sites provide proof of auditing that was done on their RTP? (Read 809 times)

I tried to test RTP % manually with my own money.

Well... I got into online gambling last year and lost pretty bad... I'm mean never had cashed out winnings.. just deposit and lose.. deposit and lose.. Tried 4 different online casinos that were recommended by some sites.. but same result.. Now all the bitcoin I bought for investment dropped in value by about half.. was all spent in gambling.  It was funny that about right after I gambled away my last bit of bitcoin.. the value sky rocketed.. Anyways... like the most of gamblers, I started blame casinos instead of me.  They got to be cheating, and the guru sites are all in it together!  
so I began recording my outcomes of all the spins.  Then I saw one casino had this game history section where it shows all my bet and winning for past 100 spins.  So at first I'd bet $1/spin, so it would be easy to calculate and set auto spin for 100 spins and then after I go to game history and manually typed results in Excel.  They didn't allow me to copy and paste game history section.  I also recorded time and date.. then save... then play another 100 spins .. record and save... I know it is very small data to conclude RTP% of the slot game, but I decided that my randomness will make up for for it at the end.  You know like when people taking poll from groups of people picked randomly to predict the outcome?... so I played at random times, random games.
I got no where close to 90's % in RTP... mostly around 50% I think one session recorded 86%, but sometimes it would have 12%...
I tried different betting amount... upto $10 / spin... but I didn't notice anything different in pay outs, just my losses were much bigger.
Roulette had about same % also.. I guess since it wasn't live dealer, it's no different than a slot machine.
I recorded about 50 sessions on spread sheet, so roughly about 5000 spins..
Now all my credit card that I used to never carry balance over were MAXED OUT.  signed up for a new card and in 2 weeks $20K maxed out.

I shared my findings with casino customer service and asked to see the RTP audit reports, because what I'm seeing is so off from what stated RTP.  He told me he would have to get back to me after reviewing my spread sheet.  next day email came just saying in their record it shows my playing history shows 91% or something.  No word about my records, or audit report.  So I asked again for the report and kindly asked if I was calculating the percentage wrong... and asked to look over my formula.   Just same reply came back.. their history shows that i've been paid over 90%.
I don't know if i should be mad, or sad... I guess I'm just mad at my self for being so stupid.

to make one confession, which will show how so freaking stupid I am is that... while I was recording and maxing out my cards.. I was playing different kind of slot game... what I mean is that I wanted to not win big bonus or jackpot.  I wanted to show the casino, that I revealed their scam.  I have hard data to show you guys are lying, so lower the RTP% more strong my argument will be.  the casinos are licensed in Curacao and I basically have no one to report, and I don't even think they will take my spreadsheet seriously.  Just like the casino customer service.  So, I beg you please no need for comments reminding me being an idiot, because already down and depressed, which is effecting me at everthing from job, marriage, family.. etc.. .  I know I deserve it.. but not now.. perhaps after 2025? you can post it.

Well said, even trusting the provider itself is a very hard task as solid gambler especially if you are losing frequently. Having a company that will audit slot provider will be very hard to convince everyone that the result is fair since there’s no popular audit company available to check online games provider regularly.

Most importantly, how they can maintain their audit regularly while provider can modify their games if they want when the auditor is not conducting an audit unlike physical slot machines which the auditor can check physically and provide some seal to the machine to protect authenticity of their audit.

It should not be very difficult if they were actually interested in doing so. I think is as simple as getting an auditing company that can work in two possible ways: a direct one, by creating "mystery shoppers" and get the returns for real or by simply examining the accounting and the books. However, in the end this is about how much you would trust the auditing guys themselves - the company I mean.

What you can do on this matter is just rely on casino's reputation as you can't get that info. Because if the casino is running suspicious, there will be rumours or you will hear complaints from their players. And to think that no casino is disclosing this kind of info, don't think that they will. So for me, it is more of reputation of the casino you need to look out for.  Very rare that you encounter a gambler who is very worried about the RTP of the casino. It is more on reputation. If you are confident that the casino is running legit and provably fair, you won't bother asking if their RTP is indeed the way it should be.

What purpose will that even serve? The proof of audit not received directly from an external firm can't be trusted, yes, it can't, not in this technological age. I advise all gamblers to only gamble where they can at least trust their overall service on an average scale, or above average scale, and when the casino does some suspective activity, it should be questioned to the point that a resolved neutral ground is maintained. This is the situation where the gambler will let go of something but I hope it shouldn't have to do with their direct money but ensuring fair play.

In other words, asking any casino for an internal audit or proof is just a waste of time. As for the profiting remark, nothing is profitable here, because if the casino wants to pay some disparities, they would have accepted their fault in the first place, however, if they did not accept their fault and still furnished the person with proof, then know that it is either the proof is genuine where it will naturally and truthfully exonerate them from any faults and payment or it is the doctor where it will not prompt them to still pay the gambler still.

So no profits in the proof whatsoever but a means of verification. Nonetheless, records like deposits and withdrawals are easily seen by both parties, but some extras like flaws and adjustments might only be known internally, which makes it still easy to cover it up if they want to.

Yes, luck is what is most often referred to when it comes to playing in a casino and specifically slot machines, and although there are many tips, strategies and techniques for playing, I believe that in the end only the luck of the player influences it. Although I am a player who does not play flat, I always innovate and seek to do other things to obtain victories, perhaps that is why I am always in constant search for knowledge in games of chance, you could say that yes, I am a researcher in that sense. Although everything points to mere luck, I am one of those who does not clip the wings of the players, if they believe in strategies, then learning is not bad, perhaps one of those strategies will make them win.

It should be possible to provide proof of audits same as proof of history of the gambler this is a requirement for licensing in some cases, although I don't know how profable it is to get such information in whole or just in time frame such as proof of audits in the last 90 days which comprises of the players history on the casinos.
The site could provide records on deposits, bet history and withdrawal history also among other things but the mentioned are the most data required for an individual account audits.

when he played at casino because even if they change casinos, it doesn't guarantee that they can get a definite win, especially if luck is not on their side, no matter how often they change casinos, there is no guarantee that they will be able to get a definite win. I have a friend who is like this, where he experienced defeat when playing at casino I mean it won't change the chances of winning in gambling.

Slot games are of course one of the games that in my opinion is a game of chance, because there is no way to increase the chances of winning if it is not due to luck, although slot games sometimes provide an RTP for players to take into consideration, but in my opinion this is not the case. had a big influence on his game. with those who think a high RTP will make it easy to win, I don't think it's possible. in slot games we just need to click and click then wait for luck to be on our side.

They are a game provider, not a live casino. But yes, I agree, they are 100% trustworthy with trained staff that knows what they are doing.

In my country, every local land-based and online casino gets officially audited by the government. In other words, the government ensures that Random Number Generators are really random and not rigged. Their audits aren't available publicly as far as I know but I am sure that every casino with local license is regularly inspected and monitored. I don't know it about online crypto casinos but I guess that provably fair system gives you confidence that the game is not rigged. Slots providers, that are presented on many crypto casinos, also get audited and you can check their audit results on their website or on 3rd party websites. I can tell you from my experience that live casinos, in this case Evolution, is audited and they have cameras absolutely everywhere, all live games provided by them are 100% trustworthy.

There is no luck involved, slots are a game of chance, and they are predetermined to entertain you for a certain amount of time, and take money out of you for that time.

When you pay $50 for a new PS4 Tomb Raider game, you know you'll get entertained for XY hours + have the story experience
When you pay $50 for a new Tomb Raider Slot game, you know you'll get entertained for XY hours + have the option of winning big

However, both games are here to entertain you, and charge for that.

Just try to think, how stupid of a business model would it be if the sole goal of the business would be to give each and every client of yours $1000 and a kiss on the forehead

Additionally, besides the reply that I already gave above your post, no one needs to audit the site for its slot games, since the slot games are like an external plugin. We, the operator, have zero control over the mechanics of it.

Imagine like telling Mercedes that they are manipulating the Michelin tires that come with their cars. Sure, they have some form of flexibility with the manufacturer due to the large amount of orders, but Michelin is the one doing all the certificates, is being audited for all the security and other stuff.

So same here, we are running the car, and the car is made out of parts provided by gambling providers. Those same providers are then strictly vetted, and most of them are publicly trading as well.

Again, the formula is transparent, it's just that the majority of people don't want to look at it or accept that you're paying for entertainment.

In the case that we are in a casino X and it happens what has always happened, we lose a lot, and in other casinos we win with the same game, as they have said above, what is then the explanation, if apart from all the games like slots almost all are those of the same provider? It seems to me that the slots are a chance to win or lose and mere luck, but what about these statistics, I have read that if they are audited, then that means that the audits are reliable? Is there no special software that performs the audit of the audit? i.e. a kind of external auditor who can say if the first audit of the site is reliable or manipulated? It's interesting, because it all starts with the famous RTP, which we all look for when it's high, but it must have its thing behind it.

*edit.

No, it doesn't depend on the situation. You're pulling info out of your ass and are just guessing, and then half of the forum will quote you and believe you.

The same reason you can't find a popular slot game code on github is the reason you can't find a Zelda game on github = trademarks, copyrights and, of course, money.

Pragmatic, Netent and others don't want to share their templates because then copycats will appear. It already happened with Book Of games once.

And no, it's not because of RTP mechanics, all of the certified games are transparent in that and to everyone actually reading it can understand that they are here for entertainment only, not for making money.

And how do you imagine auditors, people in their mid 20ies knowing how to read code?

No man. You're dealing with corporate processes, trademarks, certificates etc. Evolution Gaming Group (who owns most of the popular slots) is a *publicly trading company* = you really think their business model is scamming people? It's as every other corporate business out there, it has a formula that entertains the user and makes money, that formula is published openly. The code though? No.

Source: I work in the industry


That can happen (one operator having less luck with a game than the other operator), but it's not correlated. Separate casinos, separate accounts, separate pool.

It depends on situation. As i know in some casino is used free code - it is possible to load on github. And it is just one of possible decisions - it is possible to give an access to code on site.
Of course it is only about situation when casino trust the auditors and is ready to share such information. Common gambler or member of this board don`t have access to information how such audits are agreed upon.


I don`t know how you can check it. If it would be just written - would you believe it? I don`t think that we can check the truth ourselves. Even after audit we have to decide if we are ready to believe it.

The real question here is, should we audit the Casino RTP? I think that's a bad term because the slots games come from providers, is what we call a third-party... and that lead us to the next paradigm:

If a user on stake.com lose 1000 bets on the sweet bonanza slot, can a user from bc.game win big on that same slot? I'm not sure if the RTP is part of the casino or part of the slots provider, but that should be something to think about.

This sarcasm is brutal. 

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What’s the main reason slot game provider doesn’t want to share their source code? Is it for security purposes or they don’t want to get copied by competitors. This is a long time question here in the forum before when slot games is new since we are used to play on decentralized games like dice which every game is transparent and can be verified fairness.

Is being open source is evem possible for slot games?

To see that, do you have to follow those protocols? Isn't this Better because you are always available to verify the veracity of these Processes ? I Understand that this should always be available, when playing on say all these things are Available, it is always like that, but in the slots that have that type of RTP things can be put that way, I am Very Distrustful , I know that This is not something that causes any Discomfort , but as we are seeing things with Blockchain they should always be like this, in this case it always has to be Considered that way, therefore when we are Playing it should be Displayed Without so much protection, that makes people as if they were hiding Something.

You think that the code of the slot games is available on the site or uploaded as a project on github?

I don`t have any proves but i think that it is really easy to audit online casino. Their RTP must be in the code of the games. So, it would be enough to get access to the site/github/etc to the auditors.
But i think that it is possible to casinos with local license. I don`t sure that someone cares about Curacao license.

Companies that develop Slot games get audited. For example, NetEnt games are audited by eCOGRA, iTech Labs and by some other 3rd party organisations. Pragmatic Play also gets audited and are certified by GLI. Basically, type in Google who audits "provider name" and you'll find answers. I know that such a big slots providers are forced to get audited, otherwise they won't be able to develop their games and provide wide audience with their slots games.
Live casinos can also get audited, for example, Evolution is audited by Öhrlings PricewaterhouseCoopers AB. You can check the result of audits in their Annual Reports.

As far as I know, the in-house games of crypto casinos are not audited and they rely in provably fair system. I am not 100% confident in this but I hope any casino owner, representer or employee will enlighten us.