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Topic: Capitalism and the exploitation of labor - page 2. (Read 16459 times)

sr. member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 325
February 19, 2019, 09:41:11 AM
#51
Quote
Environment plays a role but qualities like leadership or ambition are innate, IMHO.  You cannot make a stallion into a draft horse.

you are writing nonsense.

nope thats not true, that would be a racist point of view, a stalion and a draft horse bodies are just vessels, can be any spirit inside. the one of an enslaving capitalists, and the one of a brainwashed money earning salary slave.

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 19, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
#50

I guess you never had or worked with kids.  Some are born leaders, some are not.  No matter the circumstances.

Most of the time, people who look and act like born leaders are born psychopaths, but some are born sociopaths.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
February 19, 2019, 08:39:10 AM
#49
You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

Your vision of society and humankind is simply wrong and I can't do anything against that.

Not wrong as in "moraly wrong", simply wrong as in "stupidly wrong".

You believe in responsability, freedom and meritocravy. Those three things are believes and nothing more. They're the base of the American dream and the tools that hold current society together. All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

I can only advise you to try to read Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste of Pierre Bourdieu which would, rather elegantly, demonstrate how the whole "rational choice" and "freedom" ideas are complete fallacies.

Anyway we've diggen far enough. We now know exactly where is the difference between you and me. Not much more to discuss unless you're ready to open yourself to new ideas or ready to support your core beliefs.

Techshare,
that is the one point we can agree on.
There are psychological and sociological considerations that tie into economic and political constructs.

m0glie,
I'm enjoying your perspective but there is an inspirational/aspirational quote near the end of The Road to Serfdom:
"If in the first attempt to create a world of free men we have failed;
We must try again."

coins4commies,
you keep pointing out Mondragon? This is an example of a business model, we also have co-op's in America and privately held companies that include their workers as stake holders. I am with you: our current system needs improvement, it sounds like you want people to be taken care of...so do I, I want people to thrive.


Add to what you are saying, that...

The bankers like all the above points, as long as nobody ever wins. That is the way that they win.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 912
Merit: 661
Do due diligence
February 19, 2019, 03:51:48 AM
#48
You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

Your vision of society and humankind is simply wrong and I can't do anything against that.

Not wrong as in "moraly wrong", simply wrong as in "stupidly wrong".

You believe in responsability, freedom and meritocravy. Those three things are believes and nothing more. They're the base of the American dream and the tools that hold current society together. All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

I can only advise you to try to read Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste of Pierre Bourdieu which would, rather elegantly, demonstrate how the whole "rational choice" and "freedom" ideas are complete fallacies.

Anyway we've diggen far enough. We now know exactly where is the difference between you and me. Not much more to discuss unless you're ready to open yourself to new ideas or ready to support your core beliefs.

Techshare,
that is the one point we can agree on.
There are psychological and sociological considerations that tie into economic and political constructs.

m0glie,
I'm enjoying your perspective but there is an inspirational/aspirational quote near the end of The Road to Serfdom:
"If in the first attempt to create a world of free men we have failed;
We must try again."

coins4commies,
you keep pointing out Mondragon? This is an example of a business model, we also have co-op's in America and privately held companies that include their workers as stake holders. I am with you: our current system needs improvement, it sounds like you want people to be taken care of...so do I, I want people to thrive.


legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 19, 2019, 01:23:16 AM
#47
The thing you need to realize about socialists adovocating for state ownership, is that they are viewing socialists the people as the state and you are thinking about socialism within a capitalist state like the U.S. or Soviet Union.  Two very different things....

First of all, you are way off base with the bold statement because one of the key requirements for communism is a stateless society.  The rest of your post is irrelevant.  Maybe you should read Marx instead of letting Jordan Peterson types tell you what communism and socialism are.  Once you learn about it, you might actually like it.

You cant even make a post without contradicting yourself within it. Basically you are saying Socialism (Communism stage 2) is not for government control because they VIEW the government as the people more than the government. Then you proceed to claim this state control because viewed as the people is not really state control, and is actually stateless. Well shit if it is that simple why don't you just view every government that way? OH RIGHT YOU CAN'T JUST CHANGE REALITY BY REDEFINING WORDS! DAMN!

I have actually read the work that the waste of space, boil covered ass, hypocrite Marx wrote. He was a joke from start to finish and himself met none of his own standards. He even had an in house servant which he refused to pay, which he then impregnated, and disowned the child. Essentially she was his house slave, but I am sure this man was serious about bringing power to the people and not just feeding his own fat boil infested ass. He was a tool, and you are a tool for following that hypocrite.

full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
February 19, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
#46
The solution would have been to not have an owner in the first place.  The only shareholders should be stakeholders and that way the interests of the company would always consider the interests of all stakeholders, most of whom are workers.  

The current shareholders have no skill or efficiency.  Shareholders hire people to run the company.  That doesn't have to change.  "worker control" is not a literal sense but in terms of power hierarchy.  Workers have no interest in their company being run inefficiently.

The socialist economy you describe is nothing like anything socialists are advocating.  Complete misrepresentation.  

I mentioned programs like TARP in the OP.  Those sort of programs could invest in builidng cooperatives instead of corporate welfare.  Mondragon in Spain is a perfect example and it is much more efficient than a company like GM.

Unfortunately that only works when the workers own the company, not the State. So a cooperative, like Haier, and not a state owned company like CNPC both Chinese.

Also unfortunately, many socialists advocate State ownership, not worker's ownership. As cooperatives are seen as another kind of capitalist company, only with a bit more horizontal hierarchy. Ideally there are no employees, but cooperatives can and often do employ people who do not own any shares.

I did not say Haier, I said mondragon.  The thing you need to realize about socialists adovocating for state ownership, is that they are viewing socialists the people as the state and you are thinking about socialism within a capitalist state like the U.S. or Soviet Union.  Two very different things. There is also a lot of nuance involved.  Natural resources should be collectively owned but that isn't the entire economy.

In fact in a free capitalist society, a group of disgruntled "exploited" workers CAN leave en mass and form their own company, as long as that State isn't colluding with the former companies by giving them protections or special privileges. This is far from what we see in all "attempts" of socialism. Venezuela had a few attempts at worker's control, and the State itself dissolved them, or let them rot, because in a "command" central planned economy, if the bureaucrat doesn't "assign" you raw materials, or foreign currency (promptly), or let you set your own prices you go bankrupt. And they rather "assign" resources to their own (corrupt) people, ironically accusing the workers of being thieves or anti-revolutionaries (because in "socialist" Venezuela, if you don't raise prices to compensate inflation you go bankrupt, but if you raise the prices you are an agent of imperialism seeking to overthrow the gov.)...
Exploited workers don't have the capital to do anything.  That is the point.  If they weren't being exploited, they would definitely start their own companies but that wouldn't be capitalism anymore. Capitalism is all about rewarding capital, not labor.

State control is not worker control.  Central planning is literally the opposite of worker control.
The giant obstacle of socialism is the abysmal separation between theory and practice. "if only people behaved this, or that way", but they don't (unless coerced). Capitalism, at least exploits people's greed in a way where everyone ends benefiting, so long as the state remains small and out of the way...

The free market solves things with a near realtime highly scalable voting system called: "your wallet". This is forcibly taken away in Socialist States "in the name of... workers, revolution, party, blah, blahW) by bureaucracy. Even if you practice some form of "direct democracy", you cannot take decisions as quickly and efficiently as the free marker. By the time a decision is made, it is always too late, to little, too much, too high or too low.
The free market is a mythological creature.  "Everyone ends benefiting" shows that you have bought into the externalization of costs.  Everyone loses long term because eventually you run out of resources to extract from the outside.  Capitalism is literally trashing the entire planet and only benefiting about 15% of the population.  Everyone else is in grave danger. 15% is far from everyone.  Most of the people on here are well into the top 1% and have no idea what its like for the 99%.

Capitalism is extremely inefficient and completely disregards the safety of the public as well as future sustainability.  Nothing is produced for actual consumption. Everything is produced to be sold.  This means we grow food for 10 billion people and feed 5 billion well while throwing half of it away.  We literally build products to break early so we can sell them again.  Don't ever mention efficiency and capitalism again.



"Communists" have it worse, as they push for a super strong omnipotent State dictating the economy and all aspects of life that "somehow" should later dissolve itself (never going to happen).

In "capitalism", you work because you need money. Socialism wants you to not need money, so there is no reason to work. Then no one makes anything.., except the bureaucrats who get to decide who eats and who doesn't, until the last resource is exhausted.
First of all, you are way off base with the bold statement because one of the key requirements for communism is a stateless society.  The rest of your post is irrelevant.  Maybe you should read Marx instead of letting Jordan Peterson types tell you what communism and socialism are.  Once you learn about it, you might actually like it.    

sr. member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 325
February 18, 2019, 04:37:48 PM
#45
You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

Your vision of society and humankind is simply wrong and I can't do anything against that.

Not wrong as in "moraly wrong", simply wrong as in "stupidly wrong".

You believe in responsability, freedom and meritocravy. Those three things are believes and nothing more. They're the base of the American dream and the tools that hold current society together. All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

I can only advise you to try to read Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste of Pierre Bourdieu which would, rather elegantly, demonstrate how the whole "rational choice" and "freedom" ideas are complete fallacies.

Anyway we've diggen far enough. We now know exactly where is the difference between you and me. Not much more to discuss unless you're ready to open yourself to new ideas or ready to support your core beliefs.

You are forgetting about one thing:  we are not all born equal.  We respond differently to external stimuli.  You are painting everyone with the same brush.  That is your mistake.  Any study that does not take into account the fact that societies are heterogeneous systems is erroneous, right from the start.

Some of us are born 'slaves' while others are born 'slave' masters. If you don't like the word slave, substitute it with 'passive', 'submissive', 'weak', 'lazy', 'hopeless', 'apathetic',  'uneager' etc.

Equalizing outcomes is wrong, no matter who does it. It always leads to injustice.


no one is voluntarily a slave, people are made slaves, by others that teach them crap or scam, reducing them to capitalist money earning cattle etc.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 18, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
#44
Thank you. Explaining basic things he should have learned in high school is getting tiresome.
legendary
Activity: 2030
Merit: 1573
CLEAN non GPL infringing code made in Rust lang
February 18, 2019, 08:51:40 AM
#43
The solution would have been to not have an owner in the first place.  The only shareholders should be stakeholders and that way the interests of the company would always consider the interests of all stakeholders, most of whom are workers. 

The current shareholders have no skill or efficiency.  Shareholders hire people to run the company.  That doesn't have to change.  "worker control" is not a literal sense but in terms of power hierarchy.  Workers have no interest in their company being run inefficiently.

The socialist economy you describe is nothing like anything socialists are advocating.  Complete misrepresentation. 

I mentioned programs like TARP in the OP.  Those sort of programs could invest in builidng cooperatives instead of corporate welfare.  Mondragon in Spain is a perfect example and it is much more efficient than a company like GM.

Unfortunately that only works when the workers own the company, not the State. So a cooperative, like Haier, and not a state owned company like CNPC both Chinese.

Also unfortunately, many socialists advocate State ownership, not worker's ownership. As cooperatives are seen as another kind of capitalist company, only with a bit more horizontal hierarchy. Ideally there are no employees, but cooperatives can and often do employ people who do not own any shares.

In fact in a free capitalist society, a group of disgruntled "exploited" workers CAN leave en mass and form their own company, as long as that State isn't colluding with the former companies by giving them protections or special privileges. This is far from what we see in all "attempts" of socialism. Venezuela had a few attempts at worker's control, and the State itself dissolved them, or let them rot, because in a "command" central planned economy, if the bureaucrat doesn't "assign" you raw materials, or foreign currency (promptly), or let you set your own prices you go bankrupt. And they rather "assign" resources to their own (corrupt) people, ironically accusing the workers of being thieves or anti-revolutionaries (because in "socialist" Venezuela, if you don't raise prices to compensate inflation you go bankrupt, but if you raise the prices you are an agent of imperialism seeking to overthrow the gov.)...

The giant obstacle of socialism is the abysmal separation between theory and practice. "if only people behaved this, or that way", but they don't (unless coerced). Capitalism, at least exploits people's greed in a way where everyone ends benefiting, so long as the state remains small and out of the way...

The free market solves things with a near realtime highly scalable voting system called: "your wallet". This is forcibly taken away in Socialist States "in the name of... workers, revolution, party, blah, blahW) by bureaucracy. Even if you practice some form of "direct democracy", you cannot take decisions as quickly and efficiently as the free marker. By the time a decision is made, it is always too late, to little, too much, too high or too low.

"Communists" have it worse, as they push for a super strong omnipotent State dictating the economy and all aspects of life that "somehow" should later dissolve itself (never going to happen).

In "capitalism", you work because you need money. Socialism wants you to not need money, so there is no reason to work. Then no one makes anything.., except the bureaucrats who get to decide who eats and who doesn't, until the last resource is exhausted.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
February 18, 2019, 07:25:23 AM
#42
All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

And there we go. All of your evidence comes from the least scientific branch of the most unscientific field of study that people barely qualify as a science. Social sciences can maintain no controls, can not directly observe results, can not account for so many variables... IE it doesn't follow scientific theory. It attempts to at best. You think we have diggen far enough though, so lets stop diggen.

This is utterly stupid.
So sociology is not a science because it doesn't directly observe results in a controled environment with controled variables? That's your argument against sociology and social sciences in general??

You are forgetting about one thing:  we are not all born equal.  We respond differently to external stimuli.  You are painting everyone with the same brush.  That is your mistake.  Any study that does not take into account the fact that societies are heterogeneous systems is erroneous, right from the start.

Some of us are born 'slaves' while others are born 'slave' masters. If you don't like the word slave, substitute it with 'passive', 'submissive', 'weak', 'lazy', 'hopeless', 'apathetic',  'uneager' etc.

Equalizing outcomes is wrong, no matter who does it. It always leads to injustice.


This is simply ridiculous.

Not being born equal is not the same thing as being born in a definitive way like you suggest.

Unless rare genetic disabilities, no one is born "submessive" or "weak" or "lazy".

Born lazy... And you dare calling yourself science supporter?
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 18, 2019, 06:30:43 AM
#41
All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

And there we go. All of your evidence comes from the least scientific branch of the most unscientific field of study that people barely qualify as a science. Social sciences can maintain no controls, can not directly observe results, can not account for so many variables... IE it doesn't follow scientific theory. It attempts to at best. You think we have diggen far enough though, so lets stop diggen.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
February 18, 2019, 06:20:48 AM
#40
You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!

Your vision of society and humankind is simply wrong and I can't do anything against that.

Not wrong as in "moraly wrong", simply wrong as in "stupidly wrong".

You believe in responsability, freedom and meritocravy. Those three things are believes and nothing more. They're the base of the American dream and the tools that hold current society together. All of them are false and have been provren false by all sociologic studies.

I can only advise you to try to read Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste of Pierre Bourdieu which would, rather elegantly, demonstrate how the whole "rational choice" and "freedom" ideas are complete fallacies.

Anyway we've diggen far enough. We now know exactly where is the difference between you and me. Not much more to discuss unless you're ready to open yourself to new ideas or ready to support your core beliefs.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 18, 2019, 06:06:47 AM
#39
I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.

And where is the lack of logic in saying anyone working 40 hours a week on a physically demanding job can't really take the time and energy needed to step back and improve his life/skills/conditions?

You seem to say that people need to take care of themselves and government shouldn't provide to losers that are too lazy.

What you miss though it's that no "socialist" policy gives everything to people. Those policies are here to allow people to be in a less precarious position and to open new possibilities for them.

But government won't do the studies for you. Government won't give you new skills and better job. Government won't create your own company.

No. But government can grant you free college. Government can enact better work conditions and wages. Government can provide trainings for people already working. Government can insure you financially so that creating your company doesn't mean you risk everything.

The goal of socialism isn't to do everything for people. It's to give people as much possibilities as it can.

You like attributing motive to others a lot. Motives to me, motives to these people you talk about. No one deserves anything. People deserve what they can create for themselves. Just because some one works grinding themselves down forever does not mean they have no choice or are unable to change this. You insist on looking at everyone as victims. This doesn't help people. What helps people is not having a bloated bureaucracy sucking up endless resources while it regulates everyone around it to death while never actually attaining any of the goals it was designed to meet.

You only want to see the victim aspect of this story. The reality is some people belong in those factories, if you asked a few of these people a lot of them would tell you so themselves. A lot of them are grateful just to have a dependable wage, but no, here you come to save them from that for their own good! Aren't you morally superior!
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
February 18, 2019, 05:52:09 AM
#38
I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.

And where is the lack of logic in saying anyone working 40 hours a week on a physically demanding job can't really take the time and energy needed to step back and improve his life/skills/conditions?

You seem to say that people need to take care of themselves and government shouldn't provide to losers that are too lazy.

What you miss though it's that no "socialist" policy gives everything to people. Those policies are here to allow people to be in a less precarious position and to open new possibilities for them.

But government won't do the studies for you. Government won't give you new skills and better job. Government won't create your own company.

No. But government can grant you free college. Government can enact better work conditions and wages. Government can provide trainings for people already working. Government can insure you financially so that creating your company doesn't mean you risk everything.

The goal of socialism isn't to do everything for people. It's to give people as much possibilities as it can.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 18, 2019, 05:46:04 AM
#37
You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!

Everything we have different is highlighted in this discussion.

Your double standard first: when I say poor people can't do much about their situation it's bullshit, when you say "Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now." it's a "fact".

Your absolutely lack of empathy and your incapacity to put yourself in the shoes of anyone in a different situation.

Your arrogance and contempt towards anyone you deem "too stupid" or "too lazy".


Anyone having such speech should be put in the life of a really poor personn just for a year. We'll see how your incredible mind will allow you to climb your way back to the top of the American dream...

I have plenty of empathy. I just don't make the mistake of confusing it with logic. All the empathy in the world doesn't help anyone without logic.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
February 18, 2019, 04:46:08 AM
#36
You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!

Everything we have different is highlighted in this discussion.

Your double standard first: when I say poor people can't do much about their situation it's bullshit, when you say "Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now." it's a "fact".

Your absolutely lack of empathy and your incapacity to put yourself in the shoes of anyone in a different situation.

Your arrogance and contempt towards anyone you deem "too stupid" or "too lazy".


Anyone having such speech should be put in the life of a really poor personn just for a year. We'll see how your incredible mind will allow you to climb your way back to the top of the American dream...
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
February 18, 2019, 03:50:27 AM
#35
You contradict yourself. You demand all these things must cost money, and you yourself gave a good example of free use. Also not all libraries exist solely on government funding so.. not exactly. Also there are access plans as low as $20 a month I have seen, or even $1 at McDonalds to get wifi. There is no reason people can't afford these things with minimal amounts of effort. Your argument is moot. The government is not our savior, it is our jailer.

You clearly haven't worked hard one day in your life.

Before becoming an engineer I've worked one month as a production line worker following 3 times 8 planning.

Doing ANYTHING constructive and trying to use your brain when you work in such conditions is not possible. I mean it's physically not possible.

People like you simply deny the reality of alienation of hard work.

Please anyone thinking that people are just "not willing to better themselves" just try to think about the condition you're in when you just finished a 50 hours of physical and repetitive hard job week. You CAN'T think. Not matter your education, your intelligence, your curiosity, when the week end you're just dead. The 2 days of "freedom" you get at the end are here just so you are able to go back to work week after.

In just four weeks I and my SO litteraly saw me go dumber every day, more tired and less proactive. After 2 weeks I stopped reading on the evening because I was too tired. After 3 I stopped doing anything productive after coming back from work. After 4 I couldn't do anything of the weekend.

Now imagine people doing this for YEARS?? How could you expect them to go and "better themselves"?? That's impossible. They're barely humans at this point, they're just slaves.

Anyone saying with this voice full of contempt that people are just making "excuses", go work for real. Then try to "better yourselves". We'll see how you "don't need help from the government" then.

There you go again looking in to your magic crystal ball that you think magically gives you to know things about my personal life you couldn't possibly know about. None of what you just said is fact, it is entirely your personal interpretation of reality. You just desperately need these people to occupy a victim class in order for it to justify your Marxist ideology.

Most people are poor because they don't do anything different to change their situation. There is not some hidden army of freelance ninjas running around oppressing everyone who doesn't go anywhere in life. Some people just don't give a fuck to look 2 inches past their face at what they are doing now. This is a fact.

Also your little story is cute... one month on a production line before you sat your fat ass behind a desk. You sold me on your working man creds HAH!
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@cryptocommies
February 17, 2019, 03:45:34 PM
#34
GM workers make $2 an hour in Mexico while they make around ten times more in the US.  Why are Americans paid ten times more for the same exact work producing the same exact vehicle?  I have heard claims that people are paid more when their jobs involve more skill, more risk, or more difficulty, but none of those are true here.  

Well it would also be easy to think that the Mexican’s deserve less because everything costs less in Mexico but GM actually turns around and sells the cars to Mexicans at the full American price without subtracting 80% from the labor costs.

And what is your "solution"? Point a gun to the GM owner and force him to, either sell the cars 80% less value in Mexico, or pay mexicans 80% more? Do you know where that leads? The more you intervene to remove "unfair" profits to capitalists, the less interested they will be in keeping the business afloat.

End result: GM closes, all the "low paid" mexicans back to the streets.

Workers control? Look how far that goes... Good luck. Its not impossible for cooperatives (which are still capitalist) to prosper, the majority fail. Many attribute it to the "unfair" market, but it was in fact their lack of efficiency. What, you wanted them to earn 80% more and still be competitive?

Ah the workers don't have the skill, lets put a bureaucrat to "guide" them... Yeah that will solve it... NOT. I know the results, i have seen them...

Keypoints about socialism:

  • It destroys wealth, never make it.
  • And it does to by force, never by free choice.

Therefore socialism is the opposite to freedom.

It is the workers decision, not yours, to work for GM at that wage. It is their right, and you want to take it from them, because you (who don't or shouldn't work there) don't like it. Socialism, in the inside, goes AGAINST workers wishes and interests.

In a free market society there are plenty of chances to get better wages, NONE by force. In a socialist economy, you get garbage wage, and you can do nothing about it, you HAVE TO take it, or else...

Of course the State should neither intervene the business, neither do anything to "save them". It goes both ways.
The solution would have been to not have an owner in the first place.  The only shareholders should be stakeholders and that way the interests of the company would always consider the interests of all stakeholders, most of whom are workers. 

The current shareholders have no skill or efficiency.  Shareholders hire people to run the company.  That doesn't have to change.  "worker control" is not a literal sense but in terms of power hierarchy.  Workers have no interest in their company being run inefficiently.

The socialist economy you describe is nothing like anything socialists are advocating.  Complete misrepresentation. 

I mentioned programs like TARP in the OP.  Those sort of programs could invest in builidng cooperatives instead of corporate welfare.  Mondragon in Spain is a perfect example and it is much more efficient than a company like GM.
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February 17, 2019, 08:21:25 AM
#34
Thanks for sharing your ideas, I found out lots of new information Shocked
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Do due diligence
February 17, 2019, 03:11:49 AM
#33
Neither the Mexican market nor the American market are completely free markets.
This is inherently how capitalism works though.  Companies like GM accumulate capital and buy influence over the government to shift the market in their favor.  The mythological free market cannot exist under capitalism because capital buys influence.  A company who does not actively seek to all means of shifting the markets in their favor is bound to fail in a capitalist society.



coins4commies,
you are not describing capitalism: you are describing crony-capitalism with high degrees of government interference.
We are not experiencing free markets because of crony-capitalism with high degrees of government interference.


And yes that is an inherent potential flaw in capitalism and socialism and is the flaw in communism and all highly centralized systems.
We have given too much power into the hands of corporations and reduced the effects of real consequences when they make sociopathic decisions
 but it is something that can be cured with adjustments to corporate law and a little more attention paid by consumers (us).



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