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Topic: Charlie Shrem Pleads Guilty - What do you think? - page 2. (Read 5999 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
That's some bullshit, he didn't do anything wrong.
It's a good old fashioned witch hunt, plain and simple. Every criminal empire has it's scapegoats. Bitcoiners and drug users/sellers are the new scapegoats.

Don't forget child pornographists.  Won't somebody think of the children!
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.
I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money.

I believe in people being able to protect themselves from terrorists, including the Western terrorists who are currently killing people in Middle Eastern countries.

I don't believe in violating people's rights to try to prevent terrorism.

Quote
If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this

And if people stop killing brown people terrorists will have a lot less to be mad about.  If monetary freedom increases, people can protect themselves from being forced to fund imperialist wars, and the ability to wage those wars will decrease, as will the retaliations.
hero member
Activity: 899
Merit: 1002
There's no such thing as trials in the US anymore, almost 97+% of all prisoners in the states did plea bargaining to avoid a huge sentence thus never had a trial. Meanwhile in Germany they've abolished plea bargaining and actually have due process though the state keeps trying to bring it back.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".


I agree with this concept. He was facing too much jail time to risk a potential guilty verdict. Hopefully he will be able to get "off" with not having to serve any jailtime with his guilty plea.
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
Why is he only one being prosecuted?

There are still a lot of people selling on localbitcoin.

I think his case is being used to set an example and make us behave. Everyone trading cash and Bitcoins without the proper license on localbitcoins is most certainly in violation of the law. I wish DnT was in this thread. He studied up on it and could explain the ins and outs.
I think it is more about buying and selling drugs over the internet. They charged Ross with the harshest statutes that were designed for drug lords. They changed that guy in FL with money laundering when he sold bitcoin on LBC at outrageous prices (huge mark up) to a undercover cop that told him he was going to use the bitcoin to buy drugs and do other illegal things.   

You may be right. It might not have anything to do with Bitcoin. It may just be a warning to anyone trying to bypass drug laws using the deep web.
If they prosecute anyone whose identity they can figure out who does any significant amount of business on illegal drug sites then they will essentially spread FUD among people who do business on these sites and people will likely not want to buy/sell over TOR (either that or will be more careful about keeping their identity secret).
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
If you had AML/KYC info for that guy that was selling them to SR then you are not guilty.

From what I understand he is pleading guilty to knowingly selling Bitcoin when he knew they would be used for Silk Road so it doesn't matter what info he had.  While it is well known Silk Road was used for some illegal activities not everything there was illegal.  BitInstant's part seems be relatively small compared to people actively involved in planning and conducting substantial illegal activities on a regular basis.  The documents show the activity he is pleading to was more of an aberration to get the guy out of his hair rather than some type of ongoing effort.  Anything else is irrelevant since that is what he is pleading to.  I think he will get probation.

Even probation is too much unless he knew what the coins would be used for. If I sell Bitcoins to someone from Localbitcoins and he said I work at Newegg but I deal drugs too. Would I be guilty? How am I supposed to know whether he's using them for a purchase at Newegg or to buy drugs. That seems like a lot of circumstantial bullshit to me. Or I don't know the whole story.

I believe he is admitting he knew the coins were going to be resold guy was not a licenses transmitter and that they were sold on Silk Road.  The docs shows he told the guy no a few times but gave in at one point.  That is different then someone who planned a business around illegal activities.
Charlie had posted, either on this thread somewhere above or on another similar thread that the amount of bitcoin sold on SR by bitinstant was ~$1 million worth. While it is alleged that Ross was running a drug empire that sold >$1 billion worth of drugs. Does anyone see the disconnect here?

I know the amounts are different because the $1 billion figure is based on higher exchange rates then what most of the transactions were likely carried out at, but the billion dollar figure is still there.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".


"In the first stage of political re-education, Winston Smith admits to and confesses to crimes he did and did not commit, implicating anyone and everyone, including Julia. In the second stage, O'Brien makes Winston understand that he is rotting away; by this time he is little more than skin and bones. Winston counters: "I have not betrayed Julia." O'Brien agrees Winston had not betrayed Julia because he "had not stopped loving her; his feelings toward her had remained the same." One night, in his cell, Winston awakens, screaming: "Julia! Julia! Julia, my love! Julia!" O'Brien rushes into the cell and sends him to Room 101, the most feared room in the Ministry of Love, where resides each prisoner's worst fear, which is forced upon him or her. In Room 101 is Acceptance, the final stage of the political re-education of Winston Smith, whose primal fear of rats is invoked when a wire cage holding hungry rats is fitted onto his face. As the rats are about to reach Winston's face, he shouts: "Do it to Julia!" thus betraying her and relinquishing his love for her."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Confession_and_betrayal

We don't have this type of torture in our modern society, but we do have Rape Dungeons that we euphemistically name "prisons", where an estimated 20% of male prisoners will face sexual assault - one of the worst fears of any man.
legendary
Activity: 1450
Merit: 1013
Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952
I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".

member
Activity: 77
Merit: 10
I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.
I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.

Are you serious or being flippant?

Quote
The scope of criminal proceeds is significant; the International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimated that some $500 billion (U.S.) is laundered worldwide each year.

I really don't think the terrorists (people that are pissed because the US is messing in their internal affairs) are really worried about using Bitcoin. I kind of wish terrorists would start using Bitcoin. Our market cap would increase from $6 billion to $500 billion overnight.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
That's some bullshit, he didn't do anything wrong.
It's a good old fashioned witch hunt, plain and simple. Every criminal empire has it's scapegoats. Bitcoiners and drug users/sellers are the new scapegoats.

But it doesn't really matter. These fuckwit violent oligarchs have no legitimacy left. http://www.npr.org/2011/11/25/142705292/even-lawmakers-ask-does-anyone-like-congress

Even 9/11 couldn't save them from themselves:



Now it's just a waiting game for the inevitable power collapse and revolution.
legendary
Activity: 1450
Merit: 1013
Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952
I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.

With that form of reasoning one can justify anything - anything at all.

For example: if people are allowed to get into their cars it makes it easier for them to drive to the location of potential terrorists and assist them in some way. Therefore people must not be allowed to get into their cars.

I believe that people are being manipulated through use of the T-word bogeyman into doing and tolerating some reprehensible societal changes.

Time to read "1984" again, lest we forget.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1001
https://keybase.io/masterp FREE Escrow Service
Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.
I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.
newbie
Activity: 62
Merit: 0
http://www.coinfinance.com/news/charlie-shrem-pleads-guilty

I know all of you are aware of this news already. I'm interested in what you think about it.

Should he have plead guilty? Fight for Bitcoin rights and become a martyr in prison or save himself?
Was a crime really committed or is this just a government attack on Bitcoin?
Was this a "scare" prosecution to make the rest of us "behave"?
Do you believe if he is guilty of the crimes accused he should pay for his actions? (the govt is right)
Do you think part of his "deal" includes selling out his friends, partners and clients?
Was this because there was already an ongoing investigation of Silk Road and he was unlucky enough to be dealing with them?
Do you know any insider info about what's really happening?

Here's my take on it. I like Charlie. I bought some stuff from him when he was selling in the marketplace on this forum. I had a problem with my order and he quickly made it right. I think he's a cool guy that fucked up. I don't think he sold anyone out. I think prosecutors like to put things to bed quickly so they make offers that are too good to be true that way they don't have to go to court. I think they had been looking at Silk Road for a long time and he was just a small part of that investigation.

I know people hate self moderated threads so I purposely didn't make this one. However, this isn't meant to be Charlie's public crucifixion so please be civil. You don't have to slander the man to state your opinion, he's been through enough.
I think that we need to stop looking after every movement of Charlie and wait for the result of his activity
member
Activity: 111
Merit: 10
This article seems more interesting for me http://www.coinfinance.com/news/charlie-shrem-pleads-guilty

"They had no choice. When federal agents were investigating silk road they discovered Shrem was helping launder money. They can't just ignore crimes that are taking place right in front of them. Most banks execs are smart enough not to detail their illegal activites in email. - neededtobesaid"

Yes and No.
As prosecutors, yes, they have a public obligation to fulfill their role as, well, prosecutors. However, the law affords them considerable latitude in how they do that—and for good reason.

The best exercise of justice lies in the ability to weigh the many factors involved, and effect a reasonable degree of pressure and/or punishment. What I see here, is not that. I see the typical "throw the book" at him, hope the charges stick, resulting in an easy plea deal—which they got.

I've never known a prosecutor to give a second thought as to whether (and to what extent) they should have charged. Nor whether they just ruined someone's life in the process.

For crying out loud, we have grandmas in federal penitentiary for growing and consuming cannabis for their arthritis. In one case I was reading about, an elderly lady invited an officer in her home for tea, only to be imprisoned, when he saw her plants in her kitchen.
Shrem's amateur-ness, clearly evident, is more of a sign of his lack of criminal intention. Most pros in this business, who know very well what they're doing from the start, take the necessary steps from square-one to maintain security and plausible deniability.

Lastly, money-laundering is fundamentally a questionable "crime" to begin with. If I think of routing certain funds in a certain way with a certain intention: it's legal. But if I think about it in a different way, even if I'm essentially doing the same thing, and am willing to disclose my thought process and paper trail, then it can be illegal. This is one of the reasons banks place a premium on confidentially of their internal records. No matter what their intentions, if records are made public, they may be used to construct a case against them, regardless of their intent.

This is also a reason that some folks (perhaps more on the extreme side) call money-laundering a "thought-crime." It's already illegal to do whatever the action was, that the "laundering" is suspected of aiding. Why not simply prosecute that original action? And if the core action wasn't illegal, is it even laundering then?

In the case of Shrem, so what if he sold bitcoin to someone—even if they told him they were going to spend it at the Silk Road? Several items for sale at the Silk Road are perfectly legal. Furthermore, even if someone told Shrem they wanted bitcoin for the explicit reason of purchasing drugs, who's to say those drugs aren't legal in that person's jurisdiction? The Silk Road sells internationally.
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
That's some bullshit, he didn't do anything wrong.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
In their indictment, the government alleges that 1M of that went to Silk Road.  (I wasn't even selling BTC to Silk Road users, I was allegedly selling to a guy who in turn resold the coins to users on Silk Road for a markup )

That means over a 2 year span, 0.025% of transactions on BitInstant were for Silk Road.

BitInstant's total operating profit (before costs, expesnes, ect) on 1M USD is 1.5% = $15,000 total the company profited from these alleged crimes, over an 11 months period. Thats $1,363 per month.
Jailtime for this is an absurd injustice. This is small fries, it should be a slap on the wrist fine - $15,000 at most.

That's like saying Rosa Parks should have received a slap on the wrist.

Enforcing unethical laws is unethical.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
If you had AML/KYC info for that guy that was selling them to SR then you are not guilty.

From what I understand he is pleading guilty to knowingly selling Bitcoin when he knew they would be used for Silk Road so it doesn't matter what info he had.  While it is well known Silk Road was used for some illegal activities not everything there was illegal.  BitInstant's part seems be relatively small compared to people actively involved in planning and conducting substantial illegal activities on a regular basis.  The documents show the activity he is pleading to was more of an aberration to get the guy out of his hair rather than some type of ongoing effort.  Anything else is irrelevant since that is what he is pleading to.  I think he will get probation.

Even probation is too much unless he knew what the coins would be used for. If I sell Bitcoins to someone from Localbitcoins and he said I work at Newegg but I deal drugs too. Would I be guilty? How am I supposed to know whether he's using them for a purchase at Newegg or to buy drugs. That seems like a lot of circumstantial bullshit to me. Or I don't know the whole story.

Makes no moral difference anyway since people have a perfectly legitimate right to buy drugs as well as to buy stuff from Newegg.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
If you had AML/KYC info for that guy that was selling them to SR then you are not guilty.

I deny anyone's right to force people to follow these laws.
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