Chavez is dead, bitcoin going to $100 tomorrow!!!!

vdragon

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Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 05:59:05 PM

Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 05:26:53 PM

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

To me, all governments are thieves, but Venuzula under Chavez is kinda the king of the thieves. There are three countries on my do not go list (supplemented with countries with active conflicts) and I truly love to travel and go everywhere. The do not go list is simply because I am scared to go there Tongue

. (Venezuela, North Korea and Somalia are on the list).

Quote from: Puppet on March 06, 2013, 05:33:40 PM

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?) than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

True I disagree (and it goes without saying you are entitled to your own opinion). But I thought this was a much more mature conversation than we had previously on these boards

Well I have been both to North Korea and Venezuela, and nothing is more frightening than USA or France. Walking around Chicago, Miami or Paris at night? Yeah right.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: Puppet on March 06, 2013, 05:33:40 PM

Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 05:26:53 PM

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

So how could US or brittish companies have bought these resources from Venezualian or Iranian governments? By your logic that wouldnt have been legit to begin with.

They haven't. They bought them form other private investors. In the case they were "owned" by a government than the initial sale was a bootstrap method to get things started. Following this governments should not own anything. Did I say I dislike governments? Wink

1. Inefficient use of money
2. Money burning machines
3. 'Redistribute' money in a more equal manner, (O yeah they call it fair, that always causes me nausea. This is also true for the word social in socialism. How is thievery social?)

To me, all governments are thieves, but Venuzula under Chavez is kinda the king of the thieves. There are three countries on my do not go list (supplemented with countries with active conflicts) and I truly love to travel and go everywhere. The do not go list is simply because I am scared to go there Tongue

. (Venezuela, North Korea and Somalia are on the list).

Quote from: Puppet on March 06, 2013, 05:33:40 PM

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?) than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

True I disagree (and it goes without saying you are entitled to your own opinion). But I thought this was a much more mature conversation than we had previously on these boards

Puppet

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Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 05:26:53 PM

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

So how could US or brittish companies have bought these resources from Venezualian or Iranian governments? By your logic that wouldnt have been legit to begin with.

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?) than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: Puppet on March 06, 2013, 05:16:18 PM

Whats the big difference between foreign occupation and a puppet regime or dictatorship imposed by foreign countries if they both serve to steal a nations resources? As for duration, if WW2 had lasted 20 more years, would german "enterpreneurs" have a had a more valid claim on your countries resources?

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

With respect to the duration. That is very true as it's a gliding scale, which is more right? The longer it takes the longer the crime is disconnected from the present. If an entrepreneur has worked on business for 20 years, taking it away from him is certainly unfair. The same is true (for example) for paintings stolen from Jews during WII being being dispossessed from owners present day and "returned" to families of those it was once stolen from, even if current owners have bought it from others and are many transactions away from the original thieves. I consider that dispossession thievery as well.

But these situations are much more border line to what Chavez was doing. There is no discussion possible that is theft (the same is true for Jeroen Dijsselbloem's recent actions, glad I have always stayed away from bank stocks).

Puppet

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Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 05:08:27 PM

You are right it is likely the latter. And certainly injustice has been done both during and after the war (to Germans and Dutch people alike).

But I have to say I think there are large differences, the fact that Venezuela is not occupied, the fact that property and businesses weren't seized and resold but bought by foreign investors and the fact that those investors have owned the property and business for a far longer time than the duration of WWII being three of them.

Whats the big difference between foreign occupation and a puppet regime or dictatorship imposed by foreign countries if they both serve to steal a nations resources? As for duration, if WW2 had lasted 20 more years, would german "enterpreneurs" have a had a more valid claim on your countries resources?

wachtwoord

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You are right it is likely the latter. And certainly injustice has been done both during and after the war (to Germans and Dutch people alike).

But I have to say I think there are large differences, the fact that Venezuela is not occupied, the fact that property and businesses weren't seized and resold but bought by foreign investors and the fact that those investors have owned the property and business for a far longer time than the duration of WWII being three of them.

Puppet

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes much worse.

really now. Either you are oblivious to the history of those countries, or you are insane. I assume you are dutch, after your country was liberated in WW2, did you buy back everything from those german entrepreneurs, or did your governemt "steal" it?

Puppet

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Quote from: wachtwoord on March 06, 2013, 04:41:24 PM

Concerning Chavez? He is a thief. He stole companies from entrepreneurs in Venuzuela for his own populist agenda and kicked them out of the country.

I guess you think that is somehow worse than foreign companies overthrowing democratic leaders to install puppet regimes to steal Venezuelan (/Iranian/Iraqi/etc) oil? Chavez gave back to Venezuelans what belonged to them in the first place. Much like Mossadeq before him.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: vdragon on March 06, 2013, 04:25:11 PM

Quote from: Audriux9 on March 05, 2013, 10:14:53 PM

Quote from: vdragon on March 05, 2013, 10:02:24 PM

Have you ever considered how many deaths and poor people did democracy make? Give it a thought before calling another system worse ...

Straight to the essence, can't agree more +1

Quote from: myself on March 05, 2013, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Spekulatius on March 05, 2013, 06:11:32 PM

What did the poor man do to y'all? Cry

socialism did murder about 160 million ppl world wide and Chavez did participate to make that number so there are plenty of reasons to hate him

Obama and Bush killed no less with their conquering military politics around the globe, do you suggest to hate them as well?

Well many do, altough people dont get it thats it all about the money, and that Obama and Bush are just pupets. How the hell did we get this place to politics too? Leave it be, its a bitcoin board

It's hard to see the two in isolation I think.

Concerning Chavez? He is a thief. He stole companies from entrepreneurs in Venuzuela for his own populist agenda and kicked them out of the country. I am not a fan of Bush or Obama or any other government or country but Chavez is one of the worst. The only reason he didn't do anything to me is he lacked the means. Not that I think the world will be a better place with his demise as I bet his successor is lining up. The more things change the more they stay the same

siulynot

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Quote from: vdragon on March 06, 2013, 04:25:11 PM

Quote from: Audriux9 on March 05, 2013, 10:14:53 PM

Quote from: vdragon on March 05, 2013, 10:02:24 PM

Have you ever considered how many deaths and poor people did democracy make? Give it a thought before calling another system worse ...

Straight to the essence, can't agree more +1

Quote from: myself on March 05, 2013, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Spekulatius on March 05, 2013, 06:11:32 PM

What did the poor man do to y'all? Cry

socialism did murder about 160 million ppl world wide and Chavez did participate to make that number so there are plenty of reasons to hate him

Obama and Bush killed no less with their conquering military politics around the globe, do you suggest to hate them as well?

Well many do, altough people dont get it thats it all about the money, and that Obama and Bush are just pupets. How the hell did we get this place to politics too? Leave it be, its a bitcoin board

+1
I was making bull jokes...

vdragon

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Quote from: Audriux9 on March 05, 2013, 10:14:53 PM

Quote from: vdragon on March 05, 2013, 10:02:24 PM

Have you ever considered how many deaths and poor people did democracy make? Give it a thought before calling another system worse ...

Straight to the essence, can't agree more +1

Quote from: myself on March 05, 2013, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Spekulatius on March 05, 2013, 06:11:32 PM

What did the poor man do to y'all? Cry

socialism did murder about 160 million ppl world wide and Chavez did participate to make that number so there are plenty of reasons to hate him

Obama and Bush killed no less with their conquering military politics around the globe, do you suggest to hate them as well?

Well many do, altough people dont get it thats it all about the money, and that Obama and Bush are just pupets. How the hell did we get this place to politics too? Leave it be, its a bitcoin board

sgbett

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For any USA-ians that might like to see a different viewpoint...

http://southoftheborderdoc.com

Puppet

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Its worth pointing out Chavez got reelected time after time, in elections which western observers not only deemed free and fair, they went as far as calling the electoral process a model for democracy:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12074-independent-observers-venezuelas-election-a-model-of-democracy

Probably not what you heard on US mainstream media, whom i am sure are now announcing the death of a tyrant.

As for Chavez being murdered by the US; I wouldnt rule it out, although it would have to have been a subtle approach since i am sure they looked very hard for evidence in Cuba.

kjlimo

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Quote from: vdragon on March 05, 2013, 10:02:24 PM

Have you ever considered how many deaths and poor people did democracy make? Give it a thought before calling another system worse ...

Thank you for a thoughtful post. It is a good point to think about which system causes more harm than the other... definitely not a quick and easy answer.

So best for us all not to be too hasty in passing judgement!

kjlimo

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Quote from: Cluster2k on March 05, 2013, 09:35:38 PM

I like chocolate milk, therefore... bitcoin going to $100 tomorrow!

tough to argue that logic...

kjlimo

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Quote from: fabrizziop on March 05, 2013, 06:29:54 PM

Quote from: myself on March 05, 2013, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Spekulatius on March 05, 2013, 06:11:32 PM

What did the poor man do to y'all? Cry

socialism did murder about 160 million ppl world wide and Chavez did participate to make that number so there are plenty of reasons to hate him

Chavez didn't directly participate to kill that number of people (he's not stalin) but indirectly he didn't fight the crime rates in Venezuela, contributing to (a fucking lot of) death by crimes on Venezuela. Although he did lots of stuff to at least try to improve the life of the poor class, the government was full of corruption and inefficacy.

Anyways, I think that Venezuela needed a change of leader (by normal means like not having indefinite elections, a law he approved), although I can't be happy for the death of anyone as I'm atheist so people won't be "with you in the sky" nor anything like that.

btw I prefer bitcoins to slowly rise than having them at 100$ tomorrow and 30$ the following day.

I'd be ok with hitting $100 tomorrow and coming back to $30 the following day... at least that's why my order book tells me, hehe.

bbit

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Bitcoin

LONG LIVE BITCOINS!

tvbcof

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Chavez brought honor and dignity to his people and to the whole region. I'm sorry to see him go, but hopeful that the seeds he cultivated will continue to grow.

pretendo

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