china will no longer able to control bitcoin market??? - page 4.

deisik

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Quote from: BobK71 on March 15, 2017, 10:52:44 AM

Quote from: deisik on March 15, 2017, 08:20:06 AM

Quote from: BobK71 on March 15, 2017, 08:11:38 AM

In today's world, if China wants Bitcoin to go down, the US wants it to go up or stay stable.

China is thinking of abandoning the dollar. If China creates its GovCoin and pegs the yuan to it, the yuan will become a threat to the dollar. The only monetary weapon the US has against the yuan is Bitcoin. So the US will want to maintain faith in Bitcoin

Just claiming something is not enough

It would be nice if you explained how the so-called GovCoin is going to become a threat to the US dollar. I guess you shouldn't multiply entities beyond necessity (Ockham’s Razor). In this case, your GovCoin is such a useless entity essentially. What prevents them from using their national currency as "a threat to the dollar"? I guess this coin will be a threat to the Chinese yuan itself in the first place, not the American dollar. Or do you really think that if people in China don't believe in yuan, they will all of a sudden start believing in what would be just the same yuan in disguise?

This has been done for hundreds of years. Countries have always strengthened a currency by pegging it against a stronger one. Instead of a gold or dollar standard, China might have a ChinaCoin standard. ChinaCoin may become credible, since it'd be supported by the Chinese government with its big economy

Whatever China pegs their currency to, it won't be stronger than that

If they peg the Yuan to the US dollar, it simply can't be a threat to the latter. If they peg it to gold, then more power to them. Most major currencies (like the already mentioned American dollar, Euro or Swiss franc) are by far more stable than gold (gold in comparison with them is as volatile as hell). Other than that, you can't solve a problem by relying on people who created it. Should the Chinese authorities create their own GovCoin (that's what you started with), they will abuse it in absolutely the same way they abuse the Yuan right now

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Quote from: bettercrypto on March 16, 2017, 09:55:23 AM

Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

China had never been in control of bitcoin market. It was just an illusion that they do control it. Though probably the market is controlled by people who have an enormouse amount of Bitcoin and had been made a huge profit during the 2013 bubble. And the news about PBOC are just a misunderstanding. PBOC just want to have an exchange that follow the government rule.

yes i agree with you, i think no one can control bitcoin, bitcoin is not under control of any one because bitcoin is decentralize currency and therefore no one can control bitcoin, people are now accepting bitcoin in a wide scale which is making bitcoin more and more powerful and reliable.

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Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

China had never been in control of bitcoin market. It was just an illusion that they do control it. Though probably the market is controlled by people who have an enormouse amount of Bitcoin and had been made a huge profit during the 2013 bubble. And the news about PBOC are just a misunderstanding. PBOC just want to have an exchange that follow the government rule.

Paashaas

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I rather see China losing control from the minig industry, a few miners got way to much power and they also wanna control the protocol.

michkima

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Quote from: pearlmen on March 16, 2017, 09:28:30 AM

Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

I will be so glad if its not only China but other countries in the world because if the use of bitcoin is adequately spread, it will mean that not just one person or group of people will be able to control the direction of price and when this happen stability will follow which will then mean that corporations will then come in to accept bitcoin without the fear that the 0.05btc that worths say $50 will not worth $30 tomorrow.

Well, the problem is that China is still the number one miner of bitcoins and I think they still get most of the bitcoins that get mined. Hence, even if we distribute what is currently within their control, they will just be able to mine more and get a hold of a lot of it. But I don't really think they have that much influence in the prices though.

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Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

I will be so glad if its not only China but other countries in the world because if the use of bitcoin is adequately spread, it will mean that not just one person or group of people will be able to control the direction of price and when this happen stability will follow which will then mean that corporations will then come in to accept bitcoin without the fear that the 0.05btc that worths say $50 will not worth $30 tomorrow.

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Quote from: dearbesz1219 on March 16, 2017, 08:51:25 AM

Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

When was the last the last time happened that China controlled the price of bitcoin in the market? It seems that I'm a late bloomer Grin

I didn't know and I never know that if you owned the biggest percentage profit of bitcoin in the entire world it means you already have the power to control the price of bitcoin. Huh

Having a huge volume of bitcoin at your disposal, let us say you have 5 million bitcoin in storage, will mean a big thing to the price of bitcoin in the market. If you hold your bitcoin and with the increasing demand and need for bitcoin on a daily basis then it is but undeniable that the price of bitcoin will rise. But on the other hand if you dump even just 1 million bitcoins in all of the exchanges and sell it on the lower price then there will be a price meltdown.

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Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

When was the last the last time happened that China controlled the price of bitcoin in the market? It seems that I'm a late bloomer Grin

I didn't know and I never know that if you owned the biggest percentage profit of bitcoin in the entire world it means you already have the power to control the price of bitcoin. Huh

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Quote from: Pab on March 15, 2017, 05:03:54 PM

China is not controling btc market China is biggest btc market,but with new regultion we will see more real trading volume from chinise exchanges.Dont blame China ,China is biggest btc hube

I agree, china is the majority owner of the bitcoin nowadays, I am sure china always control prices, surely they got special consideration and still assume that bitcoin is profitable so that they will continue to be able to control.

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China is not controling btc market China is biggest btc market,but with new regultion we will see more real trading volume from chinise exchanges.Dont blame China ,China is biggest btc hube

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Quote from: Mometaskers on March 15, 2017, 02:02:54 PM

Everytime I see China in the news, it's usually about outflow crackdown so I assumed that they really see it as a big problem. Bitcoin is perfect for moving money out, so again, very easy to assume it plays a big role in capital outflow. Of course that can also be done with other currencies but bitcoin is just more convenient. Now that you've mention it, I started reading more... looks like they're doing something right... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-20/china-s-yuan-outflows-plummet-showing-capital-controls-pay-off

What is happening between China and the US is classic 'war by currency.' (I don't use 'currency war' since it has a specific and different meaning.)

Since the Chinese system is still built mainly on dollar reserves, and China's credit expansion/bubble is putting stress on the adequacy of the reserves, as well as China's ability to defend its soft peg against the dollar, the US can make China suffer just by raising interest rates and making dollars more scarce in the markets.

China must now do a combination of austerity, capital controls, and spending reserves to defend its peg and confidence in the yuan. None of them is painless.

The master of the imperial system cracks the whip and the slave must suffer or try to evade. The dollar has taken the place of gold for many countries, and the power of the US comes from being able to print gold, in effect. This is not a just system.

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Quote from: deisik on March 14, 2017, 03:51:36 PM

Quote from: Mometaskers on March 14, 2017, 03:00:38 PM

Much as I welcome the PBOCs crackdown that reduced the volume of the transactions, I still can't help but be wary. You can be sure that they'd come out with more regulations. The motivation is also not really just to protect consumers. They see bitcoin as a way to launder money and surely many people there are using bitcoin to evade taxes and move out their money from China. For all it's economic changes, it seems those who can afford it still think it's shitty and would want to leave. That news about the pregnancy clinics in the US comes to mind

Please be an exception and don't ignore my question

In short, you are not the first who claims here that the actions of the PBoC in respect to Bitcoin in general and more specifically the actions aimed at making the Chinese exchanges disallow cryptocurrency withdrawals for the time being are somehow linked with the capital outflows. Since you also mention that, could you explain to me what exactly you mean by Chinese folks moving money out of the country and how it is connected with Bitcoin? Which money (currency) do you refer to exactly? You see, many posters repeat the same thing but no one cares to explain. Or should I conclude that the posters in fact just don't know what they are talking about?

I am no economist and so base my view on what I see in the news. Like I said, even if your own country is developing, that would not remove the motivation to move to another one, especially if you think you'll have a better future there. The series of extreme smog in Beijing a few months ago showed that it's still behind the West in many aspects. If I were a resident, I would have definitely been worried. Why else would some people from there spend a lot of money to make they give birth in America?

Everytime I see China in the news, it's usually about outflow crackdown so I assumed that they really see it as a big problem. Bitcoin is perfect for moving money out, so again, very easy to assume it plays a big role in capital outflow. Of course that can also be done with other currencies but bitcoin is just more convenient. Now that you've mention it, I started reading more... looks like they're doing something right... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-20/china-s-yuan-outflows-plummet-showing-capital-controls-pay-off

BobK71

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Quote from: deisik on March 15, 2017, 08:20:06 AM

Quote from: BobK71 on March 15, 2017, 08:11:38 AM

In today's world, if China wants Bitcoin to go down, the US wants it to go up or stay stable.

China is thinking of abandoning the dollar. If China creates its GovCoin and pegs the yuan to it, the yuan will become a threat to the dollar. The only monetary weapon the US has against the yuan is Bitcoin. So the US will want to maintain faith in Bitcoin

Just claiming something is not enough

It would be nice if you explained how the so-called GovCoin is going to become a threat to the US dollar. I guess you shouldn't multiply entities beyond necessity (Ockham’s Razor). In this case, your GovCoin is such a useless entity essentially. What prevents them from using their national currency as "a threat to the dollar"? I guess this coin will be a threat to the Chinese yuan itself in the first place, not the American dollar. Or do you really think that if people in China don't believe in yuan, they will all of a sudden start believing in what would be just the same yuan in disguise?

This has been done for hundreds of years. Countries have always strengthened a currency by pegging it against a stronger one. Instead of a gold or dollar standard, China might have a ChinaCoin standard. ChinaCoin may become credible, since it'd be supported by the Chinese government with its big economy.

That the IMF forbids member countries to peg against gold is a sign that the US and allies are afraid that would destroy faith in dollars and euro. This would be the same as that scenario.

It would be considered the 'nuclear option' if China does that, of course, but the option is there. In that scenario, the US will want a strong Bitcoin with which to fight back.

ChinaCoin would be a threat to the yuan only if China doesn't have enough coins to redeem its yuan. Since it can set the initial peg rate freely, this is not a problem, at least at the beginning, as long as its sets a high rate of exchange for the coin (say, 1 coin equals 1 trillion yuan, in the extreme, if it has to.) When the exchange rate is stable, the pegging becomes not a threat, but a stabilizing factor. This has always been the case with the gold standard.

deisik

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Quote from: BobK71 on March 15, 2017, 08:11:38 AM

In today's world, if China wants Bitcoin to go down, the US wants it to go up or stay stable.

China is thinking of abandoning the dollar. If China creates its GovCoin and pegs the yuan to it, the yuan will become a threat to the dollar. The only monetary weapon the US has against the yuan is Bitcoin. So the US will want to maintain faith in Bitcoin

Just claiming something is not enough

It would be nice if you explained how the so-called GovCoin is going to become a threat to the US dollar. I guess you shouldn't multiply entities beyond necessity (Ockham’s Razor). In this case, your GovCoin is such a useless entity essentially. What prevents them from using their national currency as "a threat to the dollar"? I guess this coin will be a threat to the Chinese yuan itself in the first place, not the American dollar. Or do you really think that if people in China don't believe in yuan, they will all of a sudden start believing in what would be just the same yuan in disguise?

BobK71

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In today's world, if China wants Bitcoin to go down, the US wants it to go up or stay stable.

China is thinking of abandoning the dollar. If China creates its GovCoin and pegs the yuan to it, the yuan will become a threat to the dollar. The only monetary weapon the US has against the yuan will be Bitcoin. So the US will want to maintain faith in Bitcoin.

So, just as it's always been, disunity among countries under the imperial system is good for assets like gold and Bitcoin, while unity is bad for them. Over the long run, the biggest factor is never really finance or economics. It's always politics.

deisik

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Quote from: swogerino on March 14, 2017, 06:37:36 PM

Quote from: avikz on March 14, 2017, 03:48:15 AM

That's a real welcoming news as Central Bank of China has decided to audit the online exchanges. This will somehow discourage the people who are faking volume and trying to manipulate the bitcoin price.

However, that will not completely remove the cancer from the system. There are many workarounds of the same. I'm sure Chinese people will find some workaround for the same. However, some fat at least got burned and probably we will see a little less inflated price and manipulation.

They have changed it now.
Those doing the investigations and auditing are now saying they will no longer be monitoring the bitcoin exchanges so this type of control over bitcoin is still in effect. That is probably why the disapproval of the ETF didn't even make the bitcoin price flinch, well maybe for a split second in the bitcoin price world Wink

,
but didn't have a huge effect on it since it was an American creation that does not have as much potential then if it a Chinese invention of the bitcoin exchange market

Maybe, it was a Japanese invention after all. There is a lot of world outside America

Quote from: layoutph on March 14, 2017, 11:24:26 PM

I see, so what will happened if half of China's miners quit mining? Are we affected?

I guess that would do a lot of good for Bitcoin in the long term

And it would do even more if all of them stopped mining altogether. There are quite a few full Bitcoin nodes running across different countries and if they could mine Bitcoin (since there would be no more Chinese mining farms sticking around and the mining difficulty would quickly decrease over time), that would decentralize mining and made the network more secure overall. Besides that, these old-school miners would be certainly interested in real Bitcoin evolution (not so much in profits, unlike today's miners), and therefore Bitcoin development would be greatly facilitated. So the answer is positive, yes, we would be affected

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Quote from: vinales84 on March 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

just another random throwaway account spreading FUD about China!

Chine NEVER controlled bitcoin and will NEVER control bitcoin. that is just FUD people use to make the weak hands panic and dump their precious coins to their big pockets under-priced.

if you don't believe it, take a look at last week's (past 7 days) chart and see the dump that happened after the ETF rejection. and all the Chinese markets are closed.

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I see, so what will happened if half of China's miners quit mining? Are we affected? Will it make lots of unconfirmed transactions?

DoublerHunter

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Still... China can control the bitcoin market because they are the real and legit whales of that market. They have the most early investors, miners and so on. So i think if they would like to play the market then they can do it by their self because most of the supply are there so we don't have a choice but to go with the flow for this kind of scenario. That is all my opinion.

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Quote from: Carmen_Sandiego on March 14, 2017, 06:43:00 PM

If Bitcoin splits into two, due to the blocksize issue, I think China will have a lot of influence over BU, but I think the other chain will keep its properties, and probably a larger number of users, at least that's what the number of nodes indicates.

I don't think if there would be a hardfork there would be plenty of people moving to the new one. Even if those hardforkers want to move to a new crypto, there are more people that wants to stay with bitcoins. So even if they try, they will not overcome the status quo of bitcoin. It will also not affect the bitcoin market, I think.

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