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Topic: ChromaWallet (colored coins): issue and trade private currencies/stocks/bonds/.. - page 26. (Read 97088 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
However, given real world experience in this community, such exchanges also have a nearly 100% chance of (a) getting DDoS'd and (b) getting attacked by determined, knowledgeable thieves.

Well, it would be quite similar to how mining pools work in terms of centralization. Some pool might be attacked, but that's barely a problem.

Note that thieves wouldn't gain much from a hack, so there is almost no incentive to do that.

Quote
That is why decentralized, open-review systems are preferred.

I think it's unlikely that full p2p system can be as fast as semi-centralized (federated) one. I.e. daytraders won't like it.

But it would be cool to have it as an option.

There's no reason not to use a fully p2p system. As an investor, daytrader, and one looking for development opportunities in the broker/dealer/exchange space, this is what I'd like to see. Between all the coloured coin/atomic coin swap discussion, and the distributed bond discussion I see - this is the most exciting development in bitcoin.

I think you're correct that most individual traders wouldn't want to use the basic p2p network and reference client, but there's an opportunity for both open source and commercial software (clients, analysis tools, discovery tools) development for these users, as well as exchanges/brokers.

Most users trading bitcoin for fiat money today don't prefer peer to peer solutions, like bitcion-otc, they prefer to use more centralized services (mtgox, bitinstant, etc) The OTC market can flourish alongside semi-centralized markets. Having a purely peer to peer system as the underlying assures an equal barrier to entry for exchanges & individuals, as well as assuring the transferability of assets, and decreasing the overall counterparty trust requirements of transactions not supervised by a central authority.

donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
every single satoshi is still traceable to its generation block
is this true? are you sure?

It depends on how do you define it. For example, with my proposal https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/unique-serial-number-for-every-single-satoshi-117224 , it is possible to trace every satoshi. With other definition, you may conclude that a satoshi is associated with a finite number of blocks. No matter how defined, all satoshi must be linked to one or some block generation, or that means bitcoin could be generated without proof-of-work.
Similar problem is studying ancestral history by looking at genes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy). If the gene pool was not isolated, but well mixed, after a few generations you're related to everyone. The question is how many generations till the information is diluted enough to regain practical anonymity.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
every single satoshi is still traceable to its generation block
is this true? are you sure?

It depends on how do you define it. For example, with my proposal https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/unique-serial-number-for-every-single-satoshi-117224 , it is possible to trace every satoshi. With other definition, you may conclude that a satoshi is associated with a finite number of blocks. No matter how defined, all satoshi must be linked to one or some block generation, or that means bitcoin could be generated without proof-of-work.
staff
Activity: 4256
Merit: 1208
I support freedom of choice
every single satoshi is still traceable to its generation block
is this true? are you sure?
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins. It's a very bad idea for multiple reasons. God, use the search button and you'll find a lot of threads about tainting.

What we need is an add-on for the Satoshi client and for the usual mining software to allow people melt-mining coins. That way we prevent the next "visionary" to taint our coins.

Melt-mining: mine a block and add a selfmadetransaction with all the coins you want to "melt" as fees. You need a tweaked client that prevents the selmadetransaction to be broadcasted but in your brand new mined block.

BITCOINS MUST BE FUNGIBLE.

Thank you. Taint was the word I was looking for.

Bank notes being traceable is one of the problems with them. When you use cash it is supposed to not be traceable. Using bitcoins should be just like using cash anonymously, at least as much as possible.

With the blockchain structure, bitcoins are actually LESS anonymous than cash. Even you may launder your coins, every single satoshi is still traceable to its generation block (or people can print bitcoin out of thin air). You can't just close your eyes and ignore the blockchain and say bitcoin is not (or should not be) traceable.

If you want increased anonymity, there are some proposal like automatic coin mixing. But that is your own choice.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins. It's a very bad idea for multiple reasons. God, use the search button and you'll find a lot of threads about tainting.

What we need is an add-on for the Satoshi client and for the usual mining software to allow people melt-mining coins. That way we prevent the next "visionary" to taint our coins.

Melt-mining: mine a block and add a selfmadetransaction with all the coins you want to "melt" as fees. You need a tweaked client that prevents the selmadetransaction to be broadcasted but in your brand new mined block.

BITCOINS MUST BE FUNGIBLE.

This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. It's so obvious that the miner and the owner of melt coin is the same person. Even worse, imagine that your block is orphaned. You "melting transaction" is now known to the whole world with 0-confirmation. I wish you could mine another block to include it before any other people did it.

legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
This is relieving the debt of the color coin issuer and sounds not very ethical.

Well, sometimes coins are lost, you cannot do anything with it. You know, lost wallets and stuff like that...

Same is true for paper securities: some promissory note might be lost in fire, for example.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins.

Tainted coins are contagious: if you mix tainted coin with non-tainted one result is tainted.

Colored coin is counter-contagious: if you mix colored coin with non-colored one, or with a coin of different color, it loses its color tag, the result is uncolored.

So these things are almost unrelated.

There are existing tools which trace coin taints; "colored coin" tools won't help you with this at all.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins. It's a very bad idea for multiple reasons. God, use the search button and you'll find a lot of threads about tainting.

What we need is an add-on for the Satoshi client and for the usual mining software to allow people melt-mining coins. That way we prevent the next "visionary" to taint our coins.

Melt-mining: mine a block and add a selfmadetransaction with all the coins you want to "melt" as fees. You need a tweaked client that prevents the selmadetransaction to be broadcasted but in your brand new mined block.

BITCOINS MUST BE FUNGIBLE.

I recommend, you read the technical discussion about colored bitcoins: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/colored-bitcoin-tech-discussion-106449
You will soon realize that coloring does not embed information with the coins. You have to conform to a strict set of rules for creating a color conforming transaction, which means that color information is very volatile. The apparent advantage of that is that the color information does not require additional bits or bytes. It uses the decreased entropy of the transaction in order to save the color state of unspent outputs.
sr. member
Activity: 382
Merit: 253
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins. It's a very bad idea for multiple reasons. God, use the search button and you'll find a lot of threads about tainting.

What we need is an add-on for the Satoshi client and for the usual mining software to allow people melt-mining coins. That way we prevent the next "visionary" to taint our coins.

Melt-mining: mine a block and add a selfmadetransaction with all the coins you want to "melt" as fees. You need a tweaked client that prevents the selmadetransaction to be broadcasted but in your brand new mined block.

BITCOINS MUST BE FUNGIBLE.

Thank you. Taint was the word I was looking for.

Bank notes being traceable is one of the problems with them. When you use cash it is supposed to not be traceable. Using bitcoins should be just like using cash anonymously, at least as much as possible.
hero member
Activity: 597
Merit: 500
Every now and then appears someone with the "new" idea of tainting coins. It's a very bad idea for multiple reasons. God, use the search button and you'll find a lot of threads about tainting.

What we need is an add-on for the Satoshi client and for the usual mining software to allow people melt-mining coins. That way we prevent the next "visionary" to taint our coins.

Melt-mining: mine a block and add a selfmadetransaction with all the coins you want to "melt" as fees. You need a tweaked client that prevents the selmadetransaction to be broadcasted but in your brand new mined block.

BITCOINS MUST BE FUNGIBLE.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
This colored bitcoin concept just doesn't seem right to me. Bitcoins are supposed to be fungible, and this takes away from that as well as causes unnecessary deflation.

One of the concerns I have is that it will make it easier (or at least more common and accepted) to track bitcoins that are "dirty" somehow (at least in some people's, or more importantly governments, eyes).

Bank notes are fungible but still traceable, so as bitcoin. You can not stop people tracking bitcoin with the current blockchain system. If we could not avoid, why don't we make good use of this feature? (Unless you have a better idea)

For the deflation issue, the face value of colored bitcoin should be also considered in the transaction. For example, if you want to buy 1 colored satoshi with 10000 satoshis, you have to pay 10001 satoshis.
sr. member
Activity: 382
Merit: 253
This colored bitcoin concept just doesn't seem right to me. Bitcoins are supposed to be fungible, and this takes away from that as well as causes unnecessary deflation.

One of the concerns I have is that it will make it easier (or at least more common and accepted) to track bitcoins that are "dirty" somehow (at least in some people's, or more importantly governments, eyes).
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
The question is, since bitcoin is fungible, how do we know the color of these coins?

Via a special coloring rules/algorithm. See here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/order-based-coin-coloring-114571

Quote
Furthermore, if someone mixes 1 Red coin and 2 Blue coins and makes a single output of 3BTC, what is the color of the output?

Uncolored. Essentially you're scrapping your colored coins for underlying BTC in this case.

Quote
How about paying transaction fee with colored coins? Will the miner claim it with the coinbase input?

If you pay fee with colored coin miner will get this money fresh and uncolored, so don't do that with coins more valuable than underlying BTC Smiley

There are several solutions to transaction fees with colored coins:

  • don't pay fee. some transactions are eligible to be included into blockchain for free
  • have a small amount of uncolored coins and pay fees with them. presumably your client software will do that automatically
  • find someone to pay fee for you: you'll pay him colored coins, he will pay fee with his uncolored coins


This is relieving the debt of the color coin issuer and sounds not very ethical. If the colored coin is linked to a smart property, the property is also lost to no one. I have a new proposal, which every single satoshi has unique color:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/unique-serial-number-for-every-single-satoshi-117224
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
The question is, since bitcoin is fungible, how do we know the color of these coins?

Via a special coloring rules/algorithm. See here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/order-based-coin-coloring-114571

Quote
Furthermore, if someone mixes 1 Red coin and 2 Blue coins and makes a single output of 3BTC, what is the color of the output?

Uncolored. Essentially you're scrapping your colored coins for underlying BTC in this case.

Quote
How about paying transaction fee with colored coins? Will the miner claim it with the coinbase input?

If you pay fee with colored coin miner will get this money fresh and uncolored, so don't do that with coins more valuable than underlying BTC Smiley

There are several solutions to transaction fees with colored coins:

  • don't pay fee. some transactions are eligible to be included into blockchain for free
  • have a small amount of uncolored coins and pay fees with them. presumably your client software will do that automatically
  • find someone to pay fee for you: you'll pay him colored coins, he will pay fee with his uncolored coins
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
Bitcoin from different inputs are completely mixed in a transaction. Assuming that Alice has 1 Red coin in a single output, and Bob has 5 Blue coins in a single output. To buy the Red coin from Alice, Bob will pay 1 Blue coin + 5BTC. Bob will also pay the transaction fee.

Input
1. Address A (Red coins): 1BTC (Alice)
2. Address B (Blue coins): 5BTC (Bob)
3. Address C (Normal bitcoin): 10.005BTC (Bob)

Output
1. Address D: 1BTC (Bob)
2. Address E: 4BTC (Bob)
3. Address F: 1BTC (Alice)
3. Address G: 5BTC (Alice)
4: Address H: 5BTC (Bob)

Transaction fee: 0.005BTC

Presumably, the 1BTC in Address D should be a Red coin, and the 1BTC in Address F should be a Blue coin. The 4BTC in Address E is a "change" from Address B and are Blue coins. The 5 BTC in Address G is the payment in normal bitcoin, and the 5BTC in Address H is the change of normal bitcoin going back to Bob.

The question is, since bitcoin is fungible, how do we know the color of these coins?

Furthermore, if someone mixes 1 Red coin and 2 Blue coins and makes a single output of 3BTC, what is the color of the output?

How about paying transaction fee with colored coins? Will the miner claim it with the coinbase input?


I understand the coloring part, but I don't get how this paves the way for distributed exchanges. What am I missing?

People having coins of different colors can exchange them securely via a simple bitcoin transaction which would be atomic.

E.g. one person gives 1 red coin and gets 5 blue coins, other person gives 5 blue coins and gets 1 red coins, they construct a transaction, sign it, and once it is in blockchain trade is done. (If one person signs but other doesn't transaction would be invalid. If there is a double-spend, it would also invalidate whole txn. So trade transactions are in fact more secure than accepting bitcoins.)

So what's left is order matching logic, i.e. allowing person which is willing to trade red coins for blue coins to find a person who wants the opposite.

This is fairly simple to implement and straightforward.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
However, given real world experience in this community, such exchanges also have a nearly 100% chance of (a) getting DDoS'd and (b) getting attacked by determined, knowledgeable thieves.
semi-centralized exchanges allow the user to mitigate the risk better by moving long-term investments offline. I'd call that an improvement over existing infrastructure.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I agree with killerstorm 100% on this issue. The order book is not the problem. Theft of assets is. Secure the assets and the the important problem is solved.
legendary
Activity: 1441
Merit: 1000
Live and enjoy experiments
an interesting idea. want to know more.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
However, given real world experience in this community, such exchanges also have a nearly 100% chance of (a) getting DDoS'd and (b) getting attacked by determined, knowledgeable thieves.

Well, it would be quite similar to how mining pools work in terms of centralization. Some pool might be attacked, but that's barely a problem.

Note that thieves wouldn't gain much from a hack, so there is almost no incentive to do that.

Quote
That is why decentralized, open-review systems are preferred.

I think it's unlikely that full p2p system can be as fast as semi-centralized (federated) one. I.e. daytraders won't like it.

But it would be cool to have it as an option.
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