Clash of the Titans | Bitcointalksearch.org

zby

legendary

Activity: 1594

Merit: 1001

Quote from: cypherdoc on January 10, 2012, 12:43:05 PM

Quote from: bitcoinBull on January 10, 2012, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Cluster2k on January 10, 2012, 06:49:40 AM

Whatever happens, MtGox wins. Every bout of volatility is a gold mine for them through fees. A thin market with no action is what MtGox doesn't want.

But during sideways movements with lots of trading and a high spread, its the market makers who are raking it in.

this.

it seems to me that by looking at Zhou's spreads, you can tell which way the book is stacked up. if the mtgox price is say $6 and the spreads at Bitcoinica are $5.95 and $6.10, wouldn't that be reflective of a higher number of buy limit orders vs. seller limit orders?

From what I've seen Zhou executes the limit orders at his price - that is with margin, he does not put those orders directly on MtGox - but rather he waits until matching orders are stacked there.

Crypt_Current

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Shame on everything; regret nothing.

Quote from: cypherdoc on January 10, 2012, 12:43:05 PM

Quote from: bitcoinBull on January 10, 2012, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Cluster2k on January 10, 2012, 06:49:40 AM

Whatever happens, MtGox wins. Every bout of volatility is a gold mine for them through fees. A thin market with no action is what MtGox doesn't want.

But during sideways movements with lots of trading and a high spread, its the market makers who are raking it in.

this.

it seems to me that by looking at Zhou's spreads, you can tell which way the book is stacked up. if the mtgox price is say $6 and the spreads at Bitcoinica are $5.95 and $6.10, wouldn't that be reflective of a higher number of buy limit orders vs. seller limit orders?

Like right now, when the difference between Gox and Bitcoinica's market sell is $0.05, but the difference between Gox and Bitcoinica market buy is $0.08 (and an occasional asterisk)...
Fucking ingenious IMO. I can't wait to get the resources to provide competition for Bitcoinica.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: bitcoinBull on January 10, 2012, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Cluster2k on January 10, 2012, 06:49:40 AM

Whatever happens, MtGox wins. Every bout of volatility is a gold mine for them through fees. A thin market with no action is what MtGox doesn't want.

But during sideways movements with lots of trading and a high spread, its the market makers who are raking it in.

this.

it seems to me that by looking at Zhou's spreads, you can tell which way the book is stacked up. if the mtgox price is say $6 and the spreads at Bitcoinica are $5.95 and $6.10, wouldn't that be reflective of a higher number of buy limit orders vs. seller limit orders?

bitcoinBull

legendary

Activity: 826

Merit: 1001

rippleFanatic

Quote from: Cluster2k on January 10, 2012, 06:49:40 AM

Whatever happens, MtGox wins. Every bout of volatility is a gold mine for them through fees. A thin market with no action is what MtGox doesn't want.

But during sideways movements with lots of trading and a high spread, its the market makers who are raking it in.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: evoorhees on January 10, 2012, 01:14:07 AM

Something like that is likely to result in a Double-Zhoutonging!!! Could open a rift in the Satoshi-time continuum.

everyone has to say this at least once in their lifetime here on the Forum.

it just rolls off your tong. Cheesy

Cluster2k

legendary

Activity: 1692

Merit: 1018

Whatever happens, MtGox wins. Every bout of volatility is a gold mine for them through fees. A thin market with no action is what MtGox doesn't want.

Vandroiy

legendary

Activity: 1036

Merit: 1002

Never seen a misclick-panic before?

They always remind me to check I'm using the correct sell/buy box on Gox, they look so similar. Wink

Some people panic after they mis-click and do the opposite move instantly afterwards.

Or they really want to trigger Bitcoinica. these only go one way though, if I understand correctly, because it's a bucket shop if it can be. Can't say what kinds of exploits exist for certain though, I don't use Bitcoinica.

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Quote from: Crypt_Current on January 10, 2012, 05:50:14 AM

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:40:09 AM

Quote from: Crypt_Current on January 10, 2012, 05:25:44 AM

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:23:06 AM

Now the bot ran out of money?

No orders in the range for making money and no one cares to place any right now ;-)

Can you explain this further? Im new.

*edit= got rid of big pic

Every sell order needs a buyer and every buy order needs a seller in order for a transaction to occur. In order for profit to be made, you would ideally sell higher than the current highest bid and buy lower than the lowest ask. So for example, right now (as far as i can tell) the lowest ask is 6.38, while the highest bid is 6.40, which is higher than the lowest ask. So then when you put buy orders below that ask and sell orders above that bid, whether you do it manually or automatically, it's going to be hard to get those orders filled.

Some bots will keep running and put LOTS of buys and sells really really close together, some small (to test the price or whatever), and in these times where no one is really doing any trading, the bots will still trade pennies back and forth because their buys and sells touch every once in a while.

Makes sense, thanks.

Crypt_Current

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Shame on everything; regret nothing.

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:40:09 AM

Quote from: Crypt_Current on January 10, 2012, 05:25:44 AM

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:23:06 AM

Now the bot ran out of money?

No orders in the range for making money and no one cares to place any right now ;-)

Can you explain this further? Im new.

*edit= got rid of big pic

Every sell order needs a buyer and every buy order needs a seller in order for a transaction to occur. In order for profit to be made, you would ideally sell higher than the current highest bid and buy lower than the lowest ask. So for example, right now (as far as i can tell) the lowest ask is 6.38, while the highest bid is 6.40, which is higher than the lowest ask. So then when you put buy orders below that ask and sell orders above that bid, whether you do it manually or automatically, it's going to be hard to get those orders filled.

Some bots will keep running and put LOTS of buys and sells really really close together, some small (to test the price or whatever), and in these times where no one is really doing any trading, the bots will still trade pennies back and forth because their buys and sells touch every once in a while.

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Quote from: Crypt_Current on January 10, 2012, 05:25:44 AM

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:23:06 AM

Now the bot ran out of money?

No orders in the range for making money and no one cares to place any right now ;-)

Can you explain this further? Im new.

*edit= got rid of big pic

notme

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1002

Someone hit it with a hammer.... it's stuck.

Crypt_Current

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Shame on everything; regret nothing.

Quote from: bb113 on January 10, 2012, 05:23:06 AM

Now the bot ran out of money?

No orders in the range for making money and no one cares to place any right now ;-)

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Now the bot ran out of money?

Crypt_Current

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Shame on everything; regret nothing.

Quote from: GeniuSxBoY on January 10, 2012, 04:39:17 AM

Start resources 5000 bitcoin / $5000

Start price: $6.50

If you buy 1 btc at $6.75
and sell 1 btc at $6.25

You now have 5000 bitcoin / $4999.50

That's a losing scenerio every time.

Even when you focus on the asymmetrical distribution of bid/asks, as long as 1 coin is bought on the right side of the starting price and as long as 1 coin is sold on the left side of the start price, you will lose money. We know they aren't using the asymmetry to profit because the buys and sells occur simultaneously.

The only instance I can come up with where you'd make money is by profiting from the number of transactions someone makes using your interface, i.e. Bitcoinica.

I make that kind of "mistake" when I stop and restart my bot during price swings ... old bids / asks will be left in wrong places, and then may get filled when I'd rather them not, but... not large amounts by any means.
But then, my bot is not so sophisticated yet.

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Unless you expect the price to rise in the future, so are willing to take a loss for now in order to accumulate btc. It may still be cheaper than buying all at once or gradually.

GeniuSxBoY

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

Start resources 5000 bitcoin / $5000

Start price: $6.50

If you buy 1 btc at $6.75
and sell 1 btc at $6.25

You now have 5000 bitcoin / $4999.50

That's a losing scenerio every time.

Even when you focus on the asymmetrical distribution of bid/asks, as long as 1 coin is bought on the right side of the starting price and as long as 1 coin is sold on the left side of the start price, you will lose money. We know they aren't using the asymmetry to profit because the buys and sells occur simultaneously.

The only instance I can come up with where you'd make money is by profiting from the number of transactions someone makes using your interface, i.e. Bitcoinica.

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Quote from: ArsenShnurkov on January 10, 2012, 01:31:42 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

If it is one person what would their motive be?

1. To declare his presence and might
2. To show price corridor which he think should be
3. To count the robots on the market

UPD:
4. He bought chunck of bitcoins without moving the price

Now I think its this. What do I know though.

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

This is too crazy. Someone should get tux on IRC and figure out if theres something wrong on his end.

GeniuSxBoY

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

This is not about volatility.

Topic: Clash of the Titans (Read 3987 times)