Topic: [CLOSED] Get 5 BTC and 5 USD for joining Bitcoin2Cash! - page 3. (Read 17364 times)

992884

Thank you!

863280

I already covered that.

You are unique if you are mailing cash to your customers. You are accepting responsibility for loss, de facto.

If your pockets are deep enough, you'll be ok. If your service is "buyer beware" and you don't mind complaints, you'll be ok. It's just something you should be aware of. You're welcome by the way.


There are more statutes on the state and federal level. To say that an individual is bound by the exact same statutes and regulations is just ludicrous.

I'm not wasting my time finding all of the statutes for you. I'm sure your lawyer can help you with that.


What he was arrested for and what he was convicted of appear to be two different things.


Of course. I wasn't implying that you did. I was implying the exact opposite. It's your explanation of Bitcoin to law enforcement and your perceived unwillingness to cooperate with a police investigation that will cause the problem.


You assume that your DOJ/whatever wouldn't step on Blizzard and halt their currency if people were avidly dealing drugs with it? I find that laughable.


Great.


You just answered my next question with this statement.


Okay, I should have been more precise. I made an assumption.

From my very brief look at the statues during the GoldAge case in New York, it appeared that a money transmitting license was only required if you were a LLC/corp. I assume this varies from state to state and since I don't specifically know which state you are LLC'd in I couldn't say for sure. If I was wrong, you get another "great" response from me.


I'm not talking about "legal rights". I'm talking about human rights. There's a huge difference between your constitution and a statute. It would be wise to learn that difference.


Great. I can sleep soundly now. I guess you'll be my canary to the south.

Again, what's to stop them from doing the same to you or any other business? Nothing. I'm not unique.


I should have been more specific. There are no extra relevant laws other than filing fees, etc. Can you show me how any of those laws matter other than worrying about filing fees, etc? Please provide a single example of a law (please provide a link as well) that would convince me that it would be better not to be an LLC. Right now, you're just being too vague.


That's not what he was arrested for. He was arrested for circulating metal coins as currency which is a federal crime. He was not arrested for undermining fiat currency even if that's why the politicians were up in arms. The law is what matters.


That's because I don't do illicit drugs.


How are they going to stop Blizzard or any other MMORPG from having scarce items, which create value, without ruining the game itself? It's not possible. You should also look into "Linden Dollars" which is actually given an exchange rate by the company that runs the game Second Life.


Yes I have. Like I said, I've talked to a lawyer and was advised that my business is legal.


In which case, I will immediately shut down my business since I'm not about to break any laws. However, it's currently legal and that's what matters.


What do you mean, "as far as I can tell"? Either you know or you don't know. What laws can you cite?


Businesses have the same legal rights as people in the United States.

Anyways, this is getting stale and isn't very productive. Please don't worry about me anymore. I'm not really interested in this debate.

It will be almost zero losses when customers are sending cash to you. Assuming you don't do anything sloppy like change PO boxes suddenly, etc.

You will have losses for sure when mailing cash to customers. I am certain of this.

Wrong addresses, customers lying about weather or not they received it, misdirected mail (either on purpose or by accident), postal workers stealing it, theft right from the customer's doorstep, people move and forget to have mail forwarded, etc. I could go on and on.

The customer will not care what the excuse is. In their eyes you owe them cash. I realized this very early on and decided to do cash trades in only one direction for this very reason.


So you will seriously fill out a USPS claim for cash that was in an envelope? This may actually alert more thieves in the postal system to what you are doing.


Oh sure. When you have piles of people with less than 5 posts under their belt complaining all at once it is easy to see that it's a "joe job". The real problem is when you have established/trusted members of the forum complaining, your reputation is toast.


That's just plain wrong. Look up the LLC Acts in your state. Do they apply to you as a private citizen if you never registered an LLC? Nope. Are there more Acts that apply only to LLCs? You bet! Keep digging.

Protection of personal assets from what? An angry customer that is missing cash? They won't sue you for such small amounts of money. (Talking about dollars). In terms of Bitcoin, since it isn't a recognized currency (not legal tender) you can't be sued or sue for them. No court will honor contracts in Bitcoin.

The LLC is a hindrance. You should drop it.


I don't think so. An investigator will follow cash to you for a drug purchase and you'll have them at your door at 4am. (Drug dealers sleep in I guess. This is also your warning to remove any/all contraband from your premesis.) They'll likely look for drugs on your premises and find none.

You'll begin your long speech about how Bitcoin works and how you don't need to follow any KYC regulations. It will sound fishy. It's hard to say where it will go from there. They are uncharted waters. I'm sure it won't be fun.


You don't think that the ruling applies to Bitcoin. Interesting. Are you sure? I guess it all depends on if Bitcoin undermines the US currency or not, right?


They can go right to Blizzard (? I don't play games) and demand the data or tell them to stop it. They don't have that option with Bitcoin.


Have you looked at the US statutes around 'stored money items'? What about money transmitting without a license? As soon as Bitcoin is determined to be money-like they'll bend those statutes out of shape and upon your LLC. That's if the unique form of domestic terrorism crap isn't slapped upon you first.

A private citizen is exempt from the money transmitting license statutes as far as I can tell. Yet another reason not to use an LLC.

Human rights don't apply to LLCs. You have less rights in any legal situation. If you are going to try to stand on your constitution you will fail with a LLC. There are many examples floating around.

You'd be even better off if you let your customers mail cash to each other with a WoT or similar trust system. Be sure to host your site outside of the USA, drop the LLC, and you'll be far better protected.

Assuming there are no fake complaints, the percentage of accidental losses in the mail will be very small, not enough for me to get a bad reputation. If there is active theft on the part of the postal employees, I'll be aware of it and will be able to take action. As for fake complaints, I don't think many people have much of a reason to do that but that's really just a risk that any business faces, even yours.


There are no more laws that I have to follow as an LLC than as a private individual. It actually offers me protection from being sued personally for my assets.


The same can be said for any form of payment. As long as I'm not actively encouraging illegal activity and had no prior knowledge of it, I'm in the clear.


I've read up on it extensively. The laws he violated only apply to metal coins. Otherwise, people would be getting arrested for WoW gold since it has value, can be used for drug deals, to undermine fiat currency, etc.

I'm more worried about my freedom than you are. Thanks for your concern but I've got things under control.

I wasn't aware of the other thread. I haven't been on the forums for quite some time.


It's easier for customers to trust you ("trust is earned") than for you to trust your many customers.


Public complaints of missing cash will eventually 'do you in'. (Fake complaints aka "joe job", or real ones. It doesn't matter.) I hope I'm wrong for Bitcoin's sake. Again, not trying to be abrasive here at all. I'm being realistic.


It does more than "draw eyeballs". It encourages theft. No one is blaming you. I also know how bad customers are at following directions.


It's not about hiding at all. It's about restricting how many statutes/regulations can be applied to your operation. Registering an LLC implies tacit consent to far more rules than if you just did it without an LLC.


That will only work until an investigator follows a drug/*insert bad thing* purchase right to your PO box. Guess what? You are now involved in a "drug ring" or competing lottery or something else they don't like. The end result will be a legal mess.


There is a legal precedent. It's called a unique form of terrorism designed to undermine the value of the US currency. Look at the Liberty Dollar court case.

Want to know how you win a legal battle? Don't play.

This probably isn't the best place for this discussion. I've started a thread prior to this one that introduced the service which probably would be a better place. However, since you've posted here, I'll respond here. You're welcome to repost in the other thread and I'll repost my response too.


It's just as easy to claim that you never received cash even though you did as it is to claim you sent cash even though you didn't. I'm also assuming that the people that are using my service are interested in the greater anonymity that cash provides and therefore understand the risks and accept them. Otherwise, they would just use some other exchange that is more convenient. I'm trying to fill a niche.


I told everyone not to put our business name on the envelopes for two reasons, one, obviously, "cash" on the front of an envelope is going to draw eyeballs. Secondly, however, the P.O. box isn't registered under the business name, so the employees don't see the word "cash" either, which means there's a strong chance that the mail will get returned if you put the name on there. Some people didn't follow directions and therefore it seems unfair to blame me. I've put instructions on the website so hopefully it will be more clear to everyone.


You can definitely be sure of that. The same problem goes with sending mail too if you're using the same outgoing mailbox repeatedly.


I've already talked to a lawyer. I'm an LLC because there is no use trying to hide from the government, especially since I'm not breaking any laws. Also, an LLC gives people more reason to trust me. For legal purposes the business is an online seller of digital goods. Just like selling WoW gold isn't illegal, neither is selling Bitcoins.

Of course, there are legal risks since no real precedent has been set but that's a risk I'm willing to take. I'm prepared to fight for my rights. If anyone wants to support me please send a donation to my Bitcoin address in case of needed future legal defense.

Got it, thank ye. (x

I can vouch for that. I had the postal service deliver a $120 book to the wrong door (an idiot neighbor who didn't pay rent and stole my cable). But since it was marked as delivered, I was pretty much out of luck. When I asked the manager if I could get the driver to show me where he dropped the package, I was told "They don't get involved like that, you'll have to call the Post Master General in DC." Needless to say, I ended up buying another book.

I've been biting my tongue about this for quite a while now. I simply can't hold my words any longer.

First off, before I say anything, I'd like to commend Bitcoin2Cash and offer my respect. Running these cash in the mail type services are not easy. I don't see him as competition, nor does this post stem from jealousy. It stems from concern.

Does anyone know why my service doesn't *mail out* cash? It's not because I'm keeping it hidden in a secret bunker somewhere or that I particularly like the smell of US money. (Ever notice how rancid it smells? Canadian fiat doesn't smell anything like that. lol!)

It has to do with psychology. Let me explain:

There is a certain expectation from the receiver of mail (your customer) that the mail will actually get there. Ex: If you mail cash to your customer and it is lost the customer will expect you to replace it. Also, you will encounter dishonest people who will lie to get paid twice.

This isn't as problematic in the other direction. (Assuming that you weren't indeed the cause of the lost mail or problem in this example.) If a customer mails cash to your exchange, and it is lost, you'll never have a customer expect that you pay them Bitcoins anyway. They'll just (in most cases) sadly accept that the mail got lost on its way to you.

I know what you are thinking: tracked/registered lettermail. Well, this increases the cost per trade and it won't stop the thieves from claiming the envelope had been opened before they had received it.

Registered mail gets lost too. It happens. USPS might just refund the price of your stamp or something equally stupid. If you are planning on doing business outside of the USA you will have severe delays. Registered/tracked mail has to clear customs in most jurisdictions.

You have a registered LLC. That's also really bad. Why did you do that? You are just asking to be under even more statues/regulations. You are freer as a human being under common law. Trust me on that one.

Having the word "Cash" on the envelope in the past was an amateur mistake. It took a lot of will power for me to not say anything there too. I didn't want to come across as some sort of jealous asshole that wanted to see you fail.

If you are using PO Boxes you must be absolutely sure that the employees are not snoops. The first time a letter goes missing or is slightly torn open it is time to change POs! I'm serious.

Also, you are operating from one of the worst places in the world do be doing this. The DOJ and *insert alphabet soup agency* will come after you eventually because you are 'low hanging fruit'. To get me, there are far more hoops to jump through. Plus, what I'm doing isn't illegal in my country. It appears to be illegal in yours - my condolences.

This will certainly be an "up hill" battle for you. I wish you the best of luck.

Your "brother in arms",
The Madhatter

My account was credited, thanks!

So now everyone with credits... lets trade.  Put in buy and sell offers where you think appropriate!

180442

Thank you.

#860376

Got mine! Thanks

I did receive the promotional 5 USD and 5 BTC. Thanks!

I don't know how you can get the original account if something is random, but these work consistently for me for my Google account:
http://openid-provider.appspot.com/
https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id

I did not get 5 BTC and 5 USD yet.

#391629

Thanks, site looks great.

818490

Thanks!