[Closed] PAMB - World's first 100Mh/s perpetual mining bond. 100% PPS - page 6.

PsychoticBoy

donator

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1010

Parental Advisory Explicit Content

Dear Investors,

PAMB paid the weekly dividend on BitFunder.

5.63963000 BTC paid over 250 shares.
Payment a share 0.02255852 BTC.

Difficulty now is: 15605633

Kind regards,
PsychoticBoy

PsychoticBoy

donator

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1010

Parental Advisory Explicit Content

Dear Investors,

PAMB paid the weekly dividend on BitFunder.

7.24158750 BTC paid over 250 shares.
Payment a share 0.02896635 BTC.

Difficulty just changed to: 15605633

Kind regards,
PsychoticBoy

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: coinminers on May 30, 2013, 07:55:19 PM

Quote from: Deprived on May 30, 2013, 07:24:07 PM

Quote from: coinminers on May 30, 2013, 07:10:48 PM

Question: I'm trying to understand the factors that impact people's value preferences when valuing mining assets.

So for example this particular asset is asking like around 13 BTC per Gh/s.

RTM (https://bitfunder.com/asset/RTM) is currently priced at around 16 BTC per Gh/s.

AMC (https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC) is currently priced at around 14 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

But then for example ASIC.COOP (https://bitfunder.com/asset/ASIC.COOP) is currently priced at 1.38 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

Can anyone explain such a huge discrepancy? Is something inherently shaky/wrong with ASIC.COOP that I'm missing?

1. Who issued ASIC.COOP? When I look at its profile there's no information on who issued it. It could be some known scammer for all I know. There's no link to any forum thread for discussion. Maybe there's a thread somewhere - maybe not. If I want to burn money I'd rather set fire to bank notes than send it to someone who won't even provide a forum name for contact.
2. They have BFLs on order - some discount for that should be expected to reflect the chance of another year of delays.
3. Investors don't do math. For most, valuing a company means looking at what price shares are being sold at and has absolutely nothing to do with making even a token effort to determine whether it'll ever make a profit or how it compares to similar offerings.

Some mix of the above.

EDIT: On reflection I think I recall that it's run by a known scammer - some romanian guy called ciuciu oir similar who defaulted on a bond he issued after lieing about what the funds would be used for. Apologies to the actual issuer if I'm wrong in my recollection. If I'm right it was a GLBSE asset that was transferred. As he failed to keep his promises on his bond noone can expect him to keep his word this time.

Wow, that's of great help, thank you so much.

I believe this is the forum post about ASIC.COOP https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/asiccoop-asic-miners-cooperative-88008

Yeah it's who I thought it was. You'll find a thread in scammers section about him. Basically he ran a bond promising fixed interest then when GLBSE vanished defaulted on it. Not necessarily a scam itself (though still a default) except that the assets he claimed to have on GLBSE weren't enough to cover the bond anyway - and there was no sign of the mining assets he'd claimed to have covering part of the bond.

When someone turned out not to have mining assets they said they had and defaults on a bond it's not surprising that their mining bonds then get valued much cheaper than anyone else's. I'd guess he never intended to scam - just tried to make money the easy way by selling supposedly safe bonds and then putting most of it into ponzis like pirate/obsi. But end result is the same - that he can't be trusted to be doing what he claims to be doing with money he gets from investors.

coinminers

full member

Activity: 147

Merit: 100

Quote from: Deprived on May 30, 2013, 07:24:07 PM

Quote from: coinminers on May 30, 2013, 07:10:48 PM

Question: I'm trying to understand the factors that impact people's value preferences when valuing mining assets.

So for example this particular asset is asking like around 13 BTC per Gh/s.

RTM (https://bitfunder.com/asset/RTM) is currently priced at around 16 BTC per Gh/s.

AMC (https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC) is currently priced at around 14 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

But then for example ASIC.COOP (https://bitfunder.com/asset/ASIC.COOP) is currently priced at 1.38 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

Can anyone explain such a huge discrepancy? Is something inherently shaky/wrong with ASIC.COOP that I'm missing?

1. Who issued ASIC.COOP? When I look at its profile there's no information on who issued it. It could be some known scammer for all I know. There's no link to any forum thread for discussion. Maybe there's a thread somewhere - maybe not. If I want to burn money I'd rather set fire to bank notes than send it to someone who won't even provide a forum name for contact.
2. They have BFLs on order - some discount for that should be expected to reflect the chance of another year of delays.
3. Investors don't do math. For most, valuing a company means looking at what price shares are being sold at and has absolutely nothing to do with making even a token effort to determine whether it'll ever make a profit or how it compares to similar offerings.

Some mix of the above.

EDIT: On reflection I think I recall that it's run by a known scammer - some romanian guy called ciuciu oir similar who defaulted on a bond he issued after lieing about what the funds would be used for. Apologies to the actual issuer if I'm wrong in my recollection. If I'm right it was a GLBSE asset that was transferred. As he failed to keep his promises on his bond noone can expect him to keep his word this time.

Wow, that's of great help, thank you so much.

I believe this is the forum post about ASIC.COOP https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/asiccoop-asic-miners-cooperative-88008

Deprived

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: coinminers on May 30, 2013, 07:10:48 PM

Question: I'm trying to understand the factors that impact people's value preferences when valuing mining assets.

So for example this particular asset is asking like around 13 BTC per Gh/s.

RTM (https://bitfunder.com/asset/RTM) is currently priced at around 16 BTC per Gh/s.

AMC (https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC) is currently priced at around 14 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

But then for example ASIC.COOP (https://bitfunder.com/asset/ASIC.COOP) is currently priced at 1.38 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

Can anyone explain such a huge discrepancy? Is something inherently shaky/wrong with ASIC.COOP that I'm missing?

1. Who issued ASIC.COOP? When I look at its profile there's no information on who issued it. It could be some known scammer for all I know. There's no link to any forum thread for discussion. Maybe there's a thread somewhere - maybe not. If I want to burn money I'd rather set fire to bank notes than send it to someone who won't even provide a forum name for contact.
2. They have BFLs on order - some discount for that should be expected to reflect the chance of another year of delays.
3. Investors don't do math. For most, valuing a company means looking at what price shares are being sold at and has absolutely nothing to do with making even a token effort to determine whether it'll ever make a profit or how it compares to similar offerings.

Some mix of the above.

EDIT: On reflection I think I recall that it's run by a known scammer - some romanian guy called ciuciu oir similar who defaulted on a bond he issued after lieing about what the funds would be used for. Apologies to the actual issuer if I'm wrong in my recollection. If I'm right it was a GLBSE asset that was transferred. As he failed to keep his promises on his bond noone can expect him to keep his word this time.

coinminers

full member

Activity: 147

Merit: 100

Question: I'm trying to understand the factors that impact people's value preferences when valuing mining assets.

So for example this particular asset is asking like around 13 BTC per Gh/s.

RTM (https://bitfunder.com/asset/RTM) is currently priced at around 16 BTC per Gh/s.

AMC (https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC) is currently priced at around 14 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

But then for example ASIC.COOP (https://bitfunder.com/asset/ASIC.COOP) is currently priced at 1.38 BTC per (future expected) Gh/s.

Can anyone explain such a huge discrepancy? Is something inherently shaky/wrong with ASIC.COOP that I'm missing?

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1043

👻

The price WILL drop. The difficulty will not decrease for extended periods of time. The coin base is FIXED at 21 million, this bond only pays PPS (no transaction fees), so there is a set limit to how much this will yield.

Every single dividend paid out is one less that COULD be paid out (because mining rewards are limited). So the price will decrease over time, it will not increase unless the issuer changes terms like bonus hash power.

Franktank

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 500

Quote from: davecoin on May 29, 2013, 09:10:58 PM

edit: (Over a 30 day period)

If I invest 10 BTC right now into PAMB, I predict a return of:

10 BTC / 1.3 per bond = 769 mh/s; (I know you can't buy partial bonds, this is just a calculation)
Earnings for week one: 0.21 BTC,
followed by week two: 0.21,
diff adjust of 15%,
week 3: 0.1785,
week 4: 0.1785;
total is about .77 BTC in profit. This is of course assuming that the price per bond does not decrease.

*

If I invest 10 BTC right now into ASICMINER, with assumed weekly divs of (just throwing this out there) 0.015 per share and a share price of 2.5 BTC, I would profit roughly .24 btc, assuming there is no decrease in the price per share.

*

If I invest 10 BTC right now into a CoinLender interest earning CD I would see a definite return of 0.1885.

/thought

I'm going to leave this here.

friedcat confirms this here.

Food for thought.

ThickAsThieves

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: davecoin on May 29, 2013, 09:39:04 PM

I cannot say for sure that the price of the bond will drop. This is new for me. If I'm way off base, I'm interested in being enlightened.

I'll say it for you. The price will drop.

davecoin

hero member

Activity: 816

Merit: 1000

The bond is purchased based on hashrate. It's hard to speculate that the price of the bond will only decrease. Look at what people are paying for hashrate on RTM, 0.41 BTC for 25.2 mh/s. PAMB is still cheaper.

The dividend will drop. I cannot say for sure that the price of the bond will drop. This is new for me. If I'm way off base, I'm interested in being enlightened.

davecoin

hero member

Activity: 816

Merit: 1000

edit: (Over a 30 day period)

If I invest 10 BTC right now into PAMB, I predict a return of:

10 BTC / 1.3 per bond = 769 mh/s; (I know you can't buy partial bonds, this is just a calculation)
Earnings for week one: 0.21 BTC,
followed by week two: 0.21,
diff adjust of 15%,
week 3: 0.1785,
week 4: 0.1785;
total is about .77 BTC in profit. This is of course assuming that the price per bond does not decrease.

*

If I invest 10 BTC right now into ASICMINER, with assumed weekly divs of (just throwing this out there) 0.015 per share and a share price of 2.5 BTC, I would profit roughly .24 btc, assuming there is no decrease in the price per share.

*

If I invest 10 BTC right now into a CoinLender interest earning CD I would see a definite return of 0.1885.

/thought

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1043

👻

Based on your estimation of the network difficulty. This probably isn't going to be profitable, we have had difficulty increases of 100x in six months when new technology comes along. When ASIC supplies clear up, same thing will happen.

Now, if you think ASICMINER and Avalon and BFL and all the random companies are all going to have supply woes, then if this is priced at a lower price then it might be a good idea.

@davecoin: CoinLenders is perfect for you.

davecoin

hero member

Activity: 816

Merit: 1000

Assume in a 30 day window the price of a bond does not drop. Or consider the price drops to 1.1 per bond in 60 days. I would most likely still profit. Not by much after difficulty adjustments, but I would still come out ahead. That's the risk you take when investing in a mining bond. So how can you determine the fair price of a bond like this?

VJain

sr. member

Activity: 305

Merit: 250

Quote from: davecoin on May 29, 2013, 06:26:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Hasn't the bitcoin community already decided these things are worthless? Or are there new people who want to throw their money away?

How is this "worthless"?

I have coins in reserve, not being used for anything. They are sitting in my wallet. I do not want to purchase my own hardware for a number of reasons. If I purchase a bond, those coins are then generating weekly dividends. I can then sell those bonds whenever I choose. Profit. Maybe I'm missing something.

Price of the bonds will likely drop over time... return might be as follows (made up numbers below):

Bought 1 @ 1.3
30 days of Dividends: 0.15
Sold @ 1.1

End Total: 1.25 - net loss of 0.05BTC

davecoin

hero member

Activity: 816

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ?? on ??

Hasn't the bitcoin community already decided these things are worthless? Or are there new people who want to throw their money away?

How is this "worthless"?

I have coins in reserve, not being used for anything. They are sitting in my wallet. I do not want to purchase my own hardware for a number of reasons. If I purchase a bond, those coins are then generating weekly dividends. I can then sell those bonds whenever I choose. Profit. Maybe I'm missing something.

PsychoticBoy

donator

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1010

Parental Advisory Explicit Content

Quote from: davecoin on May 29, 2013, 04:47:36 PM

PsychoticBoy,

Are you using the btc generated from selling bonds in order to purchase more mining equipment? If so, what plans do you have for future growth? Will you be issuing more bonds once more hardware is purchased? What other incentive do you have for offering PMBs as opposed to just mining yourself?

Thanks,
Dave

I am not using the generated bitcoin to purchase new hardware atm, have some orders with BFL.

In the future there is a possibility that I will add new shares or adjust the Mh/s output per share but I can not promise anything at this point.

The reason that I issued this asset is to let more people get involved in the mining business without owning the hardware and the hassle.

Kind regards

davecoin

hero member

Activity: 816

Merit: 1000

PsychoticBoy,

Are you using the btc generated from selling bonds in order to purchase more mining equipment? If so, what plans do you have for future growth? Will you be issuing more bonds once more hardware is purchased? What other incentive do you have for offering PMBs as opposed to just mining yourself?

Thanks,
Dave

VJain

sr. member

Activity: 305

Merit: 250

Based on my calculations, it would take at least 300 days to break even. Not bad, but I think with the oncoming ASIC apocalypse it wouldn't be a good investment. Feel free to convince me otherwise Cheesy

. This is with a profitability decline of 0.6 on http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/. At 0.3 it's 500 days~.

ChronoX5

member

Activity: 72

Merit: 10

Quote from: PsychoticBoy on May 29, 2013, 10:20:43 AM

Dear Investors,

PAMB paid their first weekly dividend on BitFunder.

4.34495250 BTC paid over 150 shares.
Payment a share 0.02896635 BTC.

Difficulty is: 12153412

Kind regards,
PsychoticBoy

I have a feeling that the shares will be gone quite quickly once people see how nice the dividend currently is.

PsychoticBoy

donator

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1010

Parental Advisory Explicit Content

Dear Investors,

PAMB paid their first weekly dividend on BitFunder.

4.34495250 BTC paid over 150 shares.
Payment a share 0.02896635 BTC.

Difficulty is: 12153412

Kind regards,
PsychoticBoy

Topic: [Closed] PAMB - World's first 100Mh/s perpetual mining bond. 100% PPS - page 6. (Read 17348 times)