Topic: [CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx - page 68. (Read 316448 times)

Well, actually, they're held by Erik in his MPEx account.


This is a very important point. If X thinks they're worth 70 and buys, nothing has changed. If X thinks they're not worth 70 he shouldn't buy. If he buys anyway, for whatever reason, he has no right to complain. The entire "greater fool" approach to investing isn't too well regarded on MPEx, and I guess not too likely to succeed on the long term anywhere.


Actually the gap was closed already. Those in the best position to pick up a bargain are first those with bids in, as the sale happens, and second those with cash available on the exchange. There's (and there should be) a benefit from keeping BTC available so one doesn't have to wait for deposits to clear.


I think he just wanted to give more people a chance to be shareholders.

100 million shares were issued initially - no more will be issued above this limit. Of that 100 million, 10 million were available to buy on MPEX, now another 5 million will be on MPEX leaving 85 million still off MPEX (owned by Erik or whoever). No shareholders have been diluted or screwed or anything of the sort.

If the shares were worth ~0.007 before then nothing has changed. Buyers should be chomping at the bit to buy up these shares at 0.0044 and push the price back up to 0.007.
I'd buy at that price. I thought around 0.005 was good value based on what I predict the sustainable profits to be and the risks.

Maybe Erik values the share around the same level as me. If he thought they were worth more then why not keep them and earn the dividends. He's happy to take the bitcoin now rather than stay in for the long haul and keep the dividends.
Complete speculation here but perhaps another reason Erik is willing to sell these shares and take the bitcoin (and do what he wants with them), is that he thinks it is somehow legally less risky to do this than to convert his SDICE earnings into USD (fiat). If SDICE earnings are only kept in bitcoins there is maybe some legal grey area with US gambling laws but if he converted his dividends into USD there could be some issue.

Well there's obviously practical differences when it comes to things like paying dividends.

I mainly wanted to be sure that you were applying the same interpretation of the contract consistently.

I think the disagreement on interpretation stems from the use of the phrase " issue more shares on any other venue".  You believe (and in general I agree) that issuing is something that happens before shares are placed anywhere.  Which makes that phrase meaningless as you don't issue on ANY venue (whether more shares or existing ones).  If that phrase had read "issue more shares and then sell them on any other venue" then the meaning would have been clear.  Instead, by suggesting that the act of selling on a venue was "issuing" it leads toward my view of the interpretation.  And the act of selling COULD be issuing if the MPEx listing is considered to be a pass-through (NOT a cross-listing) to 10 million of the 100 million privately issued shares -as then more shares would need to be issued on MPEx before further sales (as it would be an expansion of the pass-through).

The difference would seem to be purely semantic. In the case it's "cross-listed", a block of the 100mn MPEx shares have to be annulled, and a block of the same size would be traded on another exchange. In the case it's a PT, a block of the 100mn MPEx shares is held by the PT op, and a block of the same size is traded on another exchange. Where is the difference?

I wasn't asking about a pass-though but about a cross-listing (of some of the existing 100 million) on a second exchange.  In a cross-listing the shares on the other exchange wouldn't be represented at all on MPEx - which is different to a (properly run) pass-through where each share in the pass-through is backed by a share purchased through and tracked by MPEx.

This is in principle true, sure.


If it does manage to keep the price more or less around actual share value (whatever that may be) we'll all be happy.



Seems pretty clear cut to me. No further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on any other venue, no further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on this venue unless it's both approved and non-dilutive as defined.

Otherwise PTs are and always have been perfectly legitimate, and deliberately so.

No - he said he each 1 million of THIS 5 million will be higher.  He said nothing about further sales thereafter.  The expectation has to be that next time he (or another private investor) wants cash fast they'll dump again.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course - but will tend to depress the price I'd expect.

Just to clear up one last thing for me.  Do you also agree that nothing in the contract prevents him listing S.DICE on another exchange and selling some of the current 100 million shares there?  (Not suggesting that he should or would).

Do you see that little foot all the way to 0.0008 there? Or not looking at that atm?


This is correct.


Well, if 30 BTC is the problem then 1mn share blocks are squarely out of the question, you know?


Well not at all. 100mn shares were issued, 10 mn were sold in the IPO. Some more were sold right now. Why do you think they'd be "freshly issued"?


This is correct.

No, that's a misreading of the contract. The whole story (abridged for brevity) is here:




So. 10mn offered in IPO. Not more than 50mn to be offered at all without further issuance. No sooner than 30 days after IPO closes can shares of the 10,000,001 - 50,000,000 range be offered on sale.

IPO ended Jan 3rd, was announced at the time. Erik had his shares added Feb 3rd. Today is the 5th.

The bit you quote refers to further issuance, such as if S.DICE decided to acquire PokerStars in a cash-and-share deal, issue 80mn shares so the total float now becomes 180mn, give them to PokerStars in exchange for their shares but NOT at a value under par as described. As per (c) Erik/S.DICE management would have to buy at least half of them. This is highly speculative, very far ahead in the future sort of stuff, but it's in the contract anyway.

Lets get few things straight.

1) Evoorheese starts a project - sdice
2) Gets an idea to cash in about 6 years of possible profits (if he is still in business)
3) Pervert Popescu invents ridiculous number of shares and evoorhees obviously agrees.  
4) Now, 10% of that huge number gets floated (public float) in popescus bazaar.
Now, pay really close attention.
5) Only 10% of those shares where sold to the public investor via IPO.

Question is, can he just take X% from his private stash and dump it on the market, by adding it to the public float without an secondary offer, while reducing his holding % of the whole sdice?

Forget the splits. Stock split is completely different animal and has nothing to do with the current situation.

Yes, I'm applying the definition of issuance to the letter. The sale/attribution of authorized shares (new or pre-existing) to investors.

In this case it was not a funding IPO but a privately held "corporation" for which the owner had 100% of the shares issued to himself, from which he sold his stake.

That is the way I see it.

Seems like S.DICE is back to 0.007 already.

Jesus you boys've been busy.


An historic moment. 


This.

Or, to quote MP,


Man, thinking of. The price was 7x for a week or more, how long does this thinking take?


He just said each will be higher than previous, did he?


Something doth not become a blunder just because it catches you personally off foot. The world is wider than the sphere around your nose.


This is probably a better way to look at things. For the sane long term investor a new floor just got put in, and that floor is WAY above his entry point a quarter ago. Great news by any standard.


A majority of shareholders bought at 3x.

I mean there is no such thing as being issued in this case, since the shares were already issued. If they were authorized shares being attributed, that would be issuance, for which the purchase by individuals, or issuance, can be done through any stock market or even out of stock markets. But this is not the case. All 100 million shares were already active shares held by individuals. Why cut my quote? It meant just that, it's not issuance wherever Evoorhees would decide to sell those shares as they are already issued shares.

Evoorhees & Mircea both approved. MPEx believe it's allowed, I also believe so.

As for pricing restriction, it could apply if the company would need to expand and the creation of more share was approved. If the expansion expectation of gains vs the amount of extra share created would balance each other, then it would be fair to assume issuing more shares at current market price would not dilute each share valuation and price would remain the same. Although I think these are more generic clauses simply for the form, rather than anything evoorhees ever planned to do, IMO. Plus would require approval of shareholders through a vote I believe.

Really?

SO why does the contract say : "The representatives of SatoshiDice solemnly promise and warrant never to issue more shares on any other venue"

Clearly whoever wrote the the contract believes shares can be issued on an exchange or that sentence would make no sense (as the "any other venue" part would be meaningless).

EDIT: To show the implications of your semi-interpretation, were you correct then evorhees could list S.DICE on a different exchange and sell more of the 90% there at .0001.  That would be possible as you think issuing has already occurred in every possible sense for all 100 million - so none of the restrictions apply (The restriction on other exchanges only applies to "issue more").

Do you believe that's allowed?  Does MPEx?

And you still havent given any example of where the pricing restriction on sales applies ...

It's gone, I was wrong about the breach of contract. There is no breach of contract.

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange. Shares already issued being added to a stock exchange does not constitute issuance.

To be issued, new authorized shares or authorized share never held privately must be put in private hands/stock treasury. That's what share issuance is.

aaaaandddd its gone

Yeah the debate may well seem meaningless (I'm guessing it's only the slowness of deposits to MPEx that have made the block last this long)  - however:

1.  Contracts need to be respected.
2.  It'll become relevant again when next 5 million/10 million go up after this lot sell.

Can we all stop bitching and just buy the cheap dice? Thank me later