Coinjoin on Trezor Suite - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

RickDeckard

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 3001

Quote from: mk4 on April 20, 2023, 03:41:20 AM

https://twitter.com/BitBuyBitPod/status/1648933303343280133

This is just a personal privacy preference, but whenever I have the need to access Twitter I always prefer to use Nitter[1][2]:

Quote from: mk4 on April 20, 2023, 04:17:36 PM

I totally get that. But isn't this something that we could totally blame on Wasabi? Knowing that as far as I know they're a US-based company. Potential government-related problems of getting your company shut down and all that.

From my perspective, Trezor could choose, if they wanted, to create their own coordinator as "CoinJoin is a collaboration among several people to create a bitcoin transaction—you can imagine that they are joining their coins together temporarily."[3]. Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but they could have go with centralized coordinators used by Samourai Wallet[4] since they aren't (yet) blackmailing UTXO's but they didn't choose that route and instead opted for siding with zkSNACKs...

[1]https://nitter.net/about
[2]https://github.com/zedeus/nitter
[3]https://unchained.com/blog/what-is-coinjoin/
[4]https://code.samourai.io/whirlpool/Whirlpool

mk4

legendary

Activity: 2716

Merit: 3817

Paldo.io 🤖

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 20, 2023, 04:44:49 AM

Wasabi, and now Trezor, are actively supporting and in fact directly funding government sanctioned surveillance and censorship. This is about as antithetical to bitcoin as you can get.

I totally get that. But isn't this something that we could totally blame on Wasabi? Knowing that as far as I know they're a US-based company. Potential government-related problems of getting your company shut down and all that.

Pmalek

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 7065

Quote from: RickDeckard on April 19, 2023, 06:56:47 PM

I wouldn't use Coinjoin operations in Trezor until they decide to choose another coordinator (if that is even possible to do so).

I don't think the problem is creating a new coordinator, and I am sure Trezor could have done it by putting in some more work. The problem is getting enough liquidity and users willing to switch from zkSNACKs to your new coordinator. The best option would have been to do nothing at the moment. The way things stand now, you have to choose between two evils. Using the pro-censorship zkSNACKs coordinator or running a new one no else is/will be using.

Quote from: witcher_sense on April 20, 2023, 01:29:15 AM

Quote

How does the coinjoin coordinator choose inputs?

Since your UTXOs will be sent in a transaction with other users’ funds, the coordinator checks that no individual UTXO has caused a recent coinjoin to fail and is not on a list of known high-risk UTXOs. This keeps your coins private without affecting fungibility. Owning a high-risk UTXO will not prevent other UTXOs in your wallet from being coinjoined.

Ohh, how cute. Bless them. Maybe they can share these infamous lists with us and tell us what constitutes a "high-risk UTXO" and who makes the decision which ones those are!?

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18586

Quote from: mk4 on April 20, 2023, 03:41:20 AM

Nic's stance is kinda convincing to me, but I might have some blindspots.

Wasabi, and now Trezor, are actively supporting and in fact directly funding government sanctioned surveillance and censorship. This is about as antithetical to bitcoin as you can get.

mk4

legendary

Activity: 2716

Merit: 3817

Paldo.io 🤖

Trezor <> CoinJoins is a pretty hot topic rn.

For the highly technologically literate peeps here, any opinions on this Twitter back-and-forth between Nicolas Dorier and BitBuyBitPod? Nic's stance is kinda convincing to me, but I might have some blindspots.

vvv

https://twitter.com/BitBuyBitPod/status/1648933303343280133

Doan9269

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 560

Before this time, wasabi is one of the recommended means to privately secure our bitcoin but once this was detected from that to have a privacy leak on user's data, there's a shift in which people move away from using it to the most preferred bitcoincore client using Tor, same thing we also deduce a linkage from wasabi to trezor in terms of same challenges and this makes both a thing of serious concerns if considering privacy or data leakage.

witcher_sense

legendary

Activity: 2310

Merit: 4313

🔐BitcoinMessage.Tools🔑

When CoinJoining on Trezor, you can't choose a coordinator to manage your transactions because it only work with "official" zkSNACKs coordinator.

Quote

Will Trezor sign just any transaction when it is in the automated signing mode?

No. Trezor will only sign transactions that have been prepared by zkSNACKs official coinjoin coordinator.

You are not allowed to decide which of your coins should participate in a CoinJoin transaction, you need to rely on their algorithm of automatic selection.

Quote

Can I manually select which coins to register for coinjoin?

No. All coins in your coinjoin account are eligible for mixing. The coins are selected automatically based on multiple factors.

In one of the sections of their FAQ they claim that Bitcoin is fungible and that, at the same time, there may be some "high-risk UTXOs" in your wallet unworthy to be mixed by their software.

Quote

How does the coinjoin coordinator choose inputs?

When you press Start, the coinjoin coordinator maintained by zkSNACKs receives a list of UTXOs to include in a coinjoin. Since your UTXOs will be sent in a transaction with other users’ funds, the coordinator checks that no individual UTXO has caused a recent coinjoin to fail and is not on a list of known high-risk UTXOs. This keeps your coins private without affecting fungibility. Owning a high-risk UTXO will not prevent other UTXOs in your wallet from being coinjoined.

https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite#FAQs

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18586

Haha, perfect timing here as we discuss Passport:

Quote from: https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1648748271936970754#m

Totally coincidental timing, but we've got a $10 off promo code for you fine folks 👋

Use "NOCENSORSHIP" at checkout (valid until Sunday) to save $10 and get the peace of mind that comes from unwavering security + uncensorable Bitcoin transactions.

And Trezor are hiding dozens and dozens of replies on Twitter calling them out for partnering with Wasabi and blockchain analysis. The irony of a pro-censorship company censoring everyone calling them out on their censorship. Roll Eyes

Trezor have really messed up big time here. No one should ever buy another Trezor device.

RickDeckard

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 3001

Pmalek has also reported that, besides officially launching Coinjoin, Trezor also associated this event with a 15% discount on Model T. As per my reply on that thread[1], it is sad to see that Trezor gave in into working with zkSNACKs[2]. I wouldn't use Coinjoin operations in Trezor until they decide to choose another coordinator (if that is even possible to do so).

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 19, 2023, 10:39:07 AM

If I was going to buy a hardware wallet right now, I'd pick either a Passport or a Coldcard.

Can't recommend enough Passport devices. @She shining I definitely recommend that you read these[3][4] review topics created by n0nce regarding both Passport devices as I'm sure you'll find a lot of good feedback there.

[1]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62118829
[2]https://blog.trezor.io/coinjoin-privacy-for-bitcoin-11aaf291f23
[3]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/foundation-devices-passport-batch-2-hardware-wallet-review-5421713
[4]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/foundation-passport-fe-hardware-wallet-review-and-walkthrough-5382675

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18586

Quote from: ?? on ??

maybe is my naivety speaking but I think despite breaking the trust of their customers, they are just trying to appease the government and protect their name.

And why would you want your hardware wallet to spy on you and sell you out for the sake of appeasing the government or their own reputation? The whole point of bitcoin is to not require permission from third parties in order to make the transactions you want, be they governments or blockchain analysis companies.

Quote from: ?? on ??

I was thinking of trying their device(Trezor) before, but if you believe its better to avoid it, Do help me with a recommendation.

If I was going to buy a hardware wallet right now, I'd pick either a Passport or a Coldcard.

Quote from: ?? on ??

But do assist me in understanding why use conjoining rather than a direct transaction.

For your privacy.

tranthidung

legendary

Activity: 2170

Merit: 3858

Farewell o_e_l_e_o

Bitcoin is for freedom and censorship Bitcoin UTXOs is something violates that core use case of Bitcoin.

Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread
Wasabi wallet explains new Bitcoin censorship

I am not against Wasabi wallet but above are facts about their latest upgrades as well as their policies to censor blacklisted UTXOs.

o_e_l_e_o

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 18586

Trezor is using Wasabi to perform their coinjoins, which pays blockchain analysis companies to spy on all your UTXOs and censor ones they don't like. I would stay well clear of this and all Trezor devices.

_act_

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1094

You can now conjoin on Trezor Suite

You want to know about what coinjoin is: https://trezor.io/learn/a/what-is-coinjoin
Guide: https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite

Quote

Coinjoin fees

A 0.3% coordinator fee will be taken from fresh coins greater than 1,000,000 sats (0.01 BTC). There is no such fee for UTXOs below this amount.

As with any other bitcoin transaction, you also need to pay mining fees. For coinjoin, you must pay a mining fee for each round.

Read the guide to know what are necessary, for example using Tor: https://trezor.io/learn/a/coinjoin-in-trezor-suite

Topic: Coinjoin on Trezor Suite - page 2. (Read 380 times)