Topic: CoinLab News = Price collapse - page 2. (Read 6895 times)
the coins in your trading account dont really exist in your account, most are stored in offline cold wallet. You are only trading imaginary bitcoins. They only become real bitcoins when you withdraw them. If you implement your way then you would have to wait on confirmations to move from your wallet to pending/trading wallet. Sounds like bad and insecure idea to me.
This is possible when you can create commodities out of thin air (like "paper silver").
I have thought of making a proof-of-concept "Casascius Bank" but where I accept no more than about 1000 BTC in total deposits.
The real goal, though, wouldn't be to become a bank. It would be to illustrate a proof-of-concept: provably secure depositing.
My "bank" would create cryptographic signatures on a daily basis proving in fact that I have every single bitcoin I say I have on deposit. Meanwhile, I would break down that 1000 BTC into "ranges" to assert that they are owned by specific depositors (but only in a manner where the depositors themselves can identify their own funds, not the public). For example, if I held 4 deposits for 4 people, and they were 100, 200, 300, and 400, then I would say that coins 1-100 belong to depositor 1, coins 201-400 belong to depositor 2, 401-600 and 601-1000 belong to depositors 3 and 4. I would sign and send messages to each depositor, which would allow them to reconcile, catch, and out me if (for example), I told two people they each own the same range of coins.
The real goal would be to help the public know they really can and should demand proof that their deposits are safe and sound and not fractionally pledged, the same way "provably fair gaming" is teaching us by example that we should demand, well, provably fair games.
In turn, this would cut down the number of "paper bitcoins" in existence (or rather, I should say, "bitcoin-denominated promises", because the "paper bitcoins" I have in mind - like bitaddress.org and bip38 - are actually close to the best kind of bitcoins you can have!)
I want to build a trading site, and I've thought a little about the best way to store clients' crypto-funds. What if you provided your clients with an encrypted private key to their onsite wallet? Then even if your site goes down, they can recover their funds with their own wallet.dat file plus their PW to unlock it. The only funds that would not exist in their own wallet would be what you have in escrow on your site for open orders in queue.
Important Article: http://silvervigilante.com/coinlab-repatriates-funds-to-us-no-thanks/
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
"You think Bitcoin price above silver price has not been acknowledged by High Finance? It’s likely, contrarily, they know what’s going on, and they are not pleased with this new p2p currency stealing headlines, allowing the entire world to ignore fiat in real time, now, today. Nothing short of a 51% attack on the network can allow them to control the price. The dominant financial system must protect itself from $100 Bitcoin prices as large-scale investors move into the market. Marketing this new advent as a bank, the place to store your Bitcoin, the Bitcoin community has to acknowledge that the Powers That Be will need a mechanism (bank/exchange) to control our beloved BTC price. There is merely not enough supply at these new levels to sustain any sort of serial million dollar investments without really moving the price. Check the Mt. Gox tick chart, the price was knocked from $34.80 to $33.15 off 22,000 BTC sold in around one hour; that means only $748,000 in BTC needed to be moved in one hour to move the price 4.75%. That is 6.1 days worth of BTC supply.
Or maybe I’m just missing the point?"
What im a saying is not a tinfoil hat argument... its a very valid argument that every US Citizen must be aware of. Especially if you refinanced your house to invest the money in bitcoin ;P
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
"You think Bitcoin price above silver price has not been acknowledged by High Finance? It’s likely, contrarily, they know what’s going on, and they are not pleased with this new p2p currency stealing headlines, allowing the entire world to ignore fiat in real time, now, today. Nothing short of a 51% attack on the network can allow them to control the price. The dominant financial system must protect itself from $100 Bitcoin prices as large-scale investors move into the market. Marketing this new advent as a bank, the place to store your Bitcoin, the Bitcoin community has to acknowledge that the Powers That Be will need a mechanism (bank/exchange) to control our beloved BTC price. There is merely not enough supply at these new levels to sustain any sort of serial million dollar investments without really moving the price. Check the Mt. Gox tick chart, the price was knocked from $34.80 to $33.15 off 22,000 BTC sold in around one hour; that means only $748,000 in BTC needed to be moved in one hour to move the price 4.75%. That is 6.1 days worth of BTC supply.
Or maybe I’m just missing the point?"
What im a saying is not a tinfoil hat argument... its a very valid argument that every US Citizen must be aware of. Especially if you refinanced your house to invest the money in bitcoin ;P
How many days of gold supply would you have to sell in an hour to drop it 5%? More than 6?
You are not forced to use CoinLab through. There are other exchanges, and generally most people would withdraw their bitcoins after a trade.
Important Article: http://silvervigilante.com/coinlab-repatriates-funds-to-us-no-thanks/
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
hm. I don't think your hypothetical situation is comparable to the paper silver game. On some days there's the equivalent of a years worth of silver supply being traded in paper. That would equal 1.3 million BTC (1 year of production). That's just a quantitative comparison. As for the qualitative one: Do you think if I own 1 SLV contract, I could have 5,000 oz of Silver delivered to my door? I don't think so. With BTC on mtgox/coinlab it's different. The buyers of the BTC in your scenario of a massive sell of non-existing BTC might well decide to click on the "withdraw BTC" button, forcing mtgox to come up with "real BTC". This danger of essentially a bank run makes it unlikely for mtgox/coinlab to do this. But maybe I'm misunderstanding?
Important Article: http://silvervigilante.com/coinlab-repatriates-funds-to-us-no-thanks/
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
"You think Bitcoin price above silver price has not been acknowledged by High Finance? It’s likely, contrarily, they know what’s going on, and they are not pleased with this new p2p currency stealing headlines, allowing the entire world to ignore fiat in real time, now, today. Nothing short of a 51% attack on the network can allow them to control the price. The dominant financial system must protect itself from $100 Bitcoin prices as large-scale investors move into the market. Marketing this new advent as a bank, the place to store your Bitcoin, the Bitcoin community has to acknowledge that the Powers That Be will need a mechanism (bank/exchange) to control our beloved BTC price. There is merely not enough supply at these new levels to sustain any sort of serial million dollar investments without really moving the price. Check the Mt. Gox tick chart, the price was knocked from $34.80 to $33.15 off 22,000 BTC sold in around one hour; that means only $748,000 in BTC needed to be moved in one hour to move the price 4.75%. That is 6.1 days worth of BTC supply.
Or maybe I’m just missing the point?"
What im a saying is not a tinfoil hat argument... its a very valid argument that every US Citizen must be aware of. Especially if you refinanced your house to invest the money in bitcoin ;P
"GoldMoney and Bullion Vault use ViaMat for storage. Many of the retail storage facilities, at the end, use ViaMat to store metals.
Although playing right into the hands of the bankers, there is no evidence that this is a backdoor way of mass market drive-by-shooting to occur in Bitcoin, just as it does in silver.
As essentially a new “exchange,” Coinlab can now technically enable just a few individuals or organization to trade and sell on the exchange without Bitcoin backing their trade, since they could, technically, BE the exchange. So, my concern is that this could be the entrance of 33 Liberty into the Bitcoin market to sell BTC they do not have and, as silver vigilantes will know, tank the price."
"You think Bitcoin price above silver price has not been acknowledged by High Finance? It’s likely, contrarily, they know what’s going on, and they are not pleased with this new p2p currency stealing headlines, allowing the entire world to ignore fiat in real time, now, today. Nothing short of a 51% attack on the network can allow them to control the price. The dominant financial system must protect itself from $100 Bitcoin prices as large-scale investors move into the market. Marketing this new advent as a bank, the place to store your Bitcoin, the Bitcoin community has to acknowledge that the Powers That Be will need a mechanism (bank/exchange) to control our beloved BTC price. There is merely not enough supply at these new levels to sustain any sort of serial million dollar investments without really moving the price. Check the Mt. Gox tick chart, the price was knocked from $34.80 to $33.15 off 22,000 BTC sold in around one hour; that means only $748,000 in BTC needed to be moved in one hour to move the price 4.75%. That is 6.1 days worth of BTC supply.
Or maybe I’m just missing the point?"
What im a saying is not a tinfoil hat argument... its a very valid argument that every US Citizen must be aware of. Especially if you refinanced your house to invest the money in bitcoin ;P
So really, you can as well have these coin ranges in a form of a public but anonymous ledger. Anybody who knew his/her id in the ledger would be able to verify quickly that their coins are on display. No overlaps possible. No communication needed 
That's exactly how these guys do it:
http://www.bullionvault.com/audit.do?startsWith=A
some ppl in this thread dont know what a warehouse house is 
a Bitcoin warehouse should apply same rules and principles that grain-elevators start to apply since the speculation bubble in Chicago commodity market
a Bitcoin warehouse should apply same rules and principles that grain-elevators start to apply since the speculation bubble in Chicago commodity market 
If your bank only sat on deposits and "secured" them how do you plan to make money? The idea is the bank uses deposits to make investments and has a percentage witholding they keep for withdrawals.
Yes, I think the proposal would be better described as a 'vaulting service' than as a bank.
This is possible when you can create commodities out of thin air (like "paper silver").
I have thought of making a proof-of-concept "Casascius Bank" but where I accept no more than about 1000 BTC in total deposits.
The real goal, though, wouldn't be to become a bank. It would be to illustrate a proof-of-concept: provably secure depositing.
My "bank" would create cryptographic signatures on a daily basis proving in fact that I have every single bitcoin I say I have on deposit. Meanwhile, I would break down that 1000 BTC into "ranges" to assert that they are owned by specific depositors (but only in a manner where the depositors themselves can identify their own funds, not the public). For example, if I held 4 deposits for 4 people, and they were 100, 200, 300, and 400, then I would say that coins 1-100 belong to depositor 1, coins 201-400 belong to depositor 2, 401-600 and 601-1000 belong to depositors 3 and 4. I would sign and send messages to each depositor, which would allow them to reconcile, catch, and out me if (for example), I told two people they each own the same range of coins.
The real goal would be to help the public know they really can and should demand proof that their deposits are safe and sound and not fractionally pledged, the same way "provably fair gaming" is teaching us by example that we should demand, well, provably fair games.
In turn, this would cut down the number of "paper bitcoins" in existence (or rather, I should say, "bitcoin-denominated promises", because the "paper bitcoins" I have in mind - like bitaddress.org and bip38 - are actually close to the best kind of bitcoins you can have!)
If your bank only sat on deposits and "secured" them how do you plan to make money? The idea is the bank uses deposits to make investments and has a percentage witholding they keep for withdrawals.
If i loan 50k BTC @ 1% interest over the week - e.g. so must pay back 50500BTC, and sell 50k BTC at once time, it'll start a panic / bubble burst.
There's enough people out there looking for "ways" to invest their BTC with viable returns.
As soon as someone makes a nice platform to short, the bubble will burst a lot quicker. It wont take more than a sell off of say 100k BTC lent to cause a crash. As soon as it crashes, can easily buy it back in a weeks time to cover the short.
1% per week bitfinex.com on USD had 1% per day and some time per hour There's enough people out there looking for "ways" to invest their BTC with viable returns.
As soon as someone makes a nice platform to short, the bubble will burst a lot quicker. It wont take more than a sell off of say 100k BTC lent to cause a crash. As soon as it crashes, can easily buy it back in a weeks time to cover the short.
OP is now on my ignore list.
DICK, if not scammer. i am going to have my dad look at your code and we will see if you as much of a piece of shit as I think you are. If not sorry for being hasty. Then again you were awful hasty toward me. I trust MoneyPaktrader over this guy for sure.
Why you're at it..... ask your dad to come here to protect your ass.
First of all shorting can only reduce the price on that platform. Unlike stock markets, actual bitcoins can not be created out of thin air. If you buy cheap shorted bitcoins and can not withdraw them, it is a 'bucket shop'.
Second of all, with shorting you get short squeezes. And unlike the stock market, a bitcoin short squeeze can kill (expose the reality) of a trading platform. While it is POSSIBLE with paper stocks to withdraw the certificates and have them sent to yourself, NOBODY does this. With bitcoin many people actually do withdraw from the trading platform and can expose the lack of real bitcoins behind the scenes.
BRING IT ON!
Here, here. Finally something we agree on (...possibly because I am to some extent abandoning some of my philosophical hopes for Bitcoin...)
In mainstream-land the DTCC and SEC have the backs of 'bitcoinica's in that sphere. People can be sold a handful of nothing because their computer screen tells them that they have shares of stock or whatever.
In Bitcoin-land there is not a big barrier to taking possession of what one has bought, and any outfit that goes out of their way to erect one will be viewed with rightful suspicion. Sure, some outfits will be pulling a Corzine and dipping into seg funds, but as they crash and burn customers will be even more inclined to watch their own backs. Or exit the economy when they have been robbed one to many times.
I'll look forward to some amazing short squeeze actions and will be prepared to (attempt to) capitalize on them. So ya, BRING IT ON!
In addition to the news that CoinLab is gonna manage USA/CA funds from Mtgox, they are announcing a professional, safe and licensed trading platform for US Corporations.
Trading platform = shorting.
3 or 4 medium sized corporations with 3 or 4 multimillion shorts puts the prices in $10 or below in no time.
Trading platform = shorting.
3 or 4 medium sized corporations with 3 or 4 multimillion shorts puts the prices in $10 or below in no time.
First of all shorting can only reduce the price on that platform. Unlike stock markets, actual bitcoins can not be created out of thin air. If you buy cheap shorted bitcoins and can not withdraw them, it is a 'bucket shop'.
Second of all, with shorting you get short squeezes. And unlike the stock market, a bitcoin short squeeze can kill (expose the reality) of a trading platform. While it is POSSIBLE with paper stocks to withdraw the certificates and have them sent to yourself, NOBODY does this. With bitcoin many people actually do withdraw from the trading platform and can expose the lack of real bitcoins behind the scenes.
BRING IT ON!
Pretty sure this is exactly what happened with Bitcoinica. Anyone else remember that?
This is why BFX forces users to take loans from other users of actual bitcoins and the trades happen directly on gox, although you can choose to route through the smaller BFX order book for much cheaper fees. This way there arent any 'paper bitcoins' being shorted. No bucket shop there.
This is possible when you can create commodities out of thin air (like "paper silver").
I have thought of making a proof-of-concept "Casascius Bank" but where I accept no more than about 1000 BTC in total deposits.
The real goal, though, wouldn't be to become a bank. It would be to illustrate a proof-of-concept: provably secure depositing.
I had a similar thought (create proof-of-concept bitcoin bank). I would also have auditable deposits. However I would give out ripple BTC IOUs and have a transparent reserve ratio. 100% in the beginning, but less later.
No worry at all.. If it implies some bad thing, it also allow big money to get in the experiment.. it should accelerate the developpement of BTC business and accelerate the adoption by the mass.. It will also bring a lot of money in, this is not bad at all.. it's the normal evolution of BTC !
2013 is and will be a historic year for BTC ! fasten your seat belt and enjoy the show
2013 is and will be a historic year for BTC ! fasten your seat belt and enjoy the show
In addition to the news that CoinLab is gonna manage USA/CA funds from Mtgox, they are announcing a professional, safe and licensed trading platform for US Corporations.
Trading platform = shorting.
3 or 4 medium sized corporations with 3 or 4 multimillion shorts puts the prices in $10 or below in no time.
Trading platform = shorting.
3 or 4 medium sized corporations with 3 or 4 multimillion shorts puts the prices in $10 or below in no time.
First of all shorting can only reduce the price on that platform. Unlike stock markets, actual bitcoins can not be created out of thin air. If you buy cheap shorted bitcoins and can not withdraw them, it is a 'bucket shop'.
Second of all, with shorting you get short squeezes. And unlike the stock market, a bitcoin short squeeze can kill (expose the reality) of a trading platform. While it is POSSIBLE with paper stocks to withdraw the certificates and have them sent to yourself, NOBODY does this. With bitcoin many people actually do withdraw from the trading platform and can expose the lack of real bitcoins behind the scenes.
BRING IT ON!
Pretty sure this is exactly what happened with Bitcoinica. Anyone else remember that?
not to mention the fact that 50k coins would only drop us to the $26-$27 region and i'd bet it would be back up to $30 very quickly.
$10 would take 150k btc without anyone even trying to buy against it. So you'd need a good $5m to get near $10
$10 would take 150k btc without anyone even trying to buy against it. So you'd need a good $5m to get near $10
If i loan 50k BTC @ 1% interest over the week - e.g. so must pay back 50500BTC, and sell 50k BTC at once time, it'll start a panic / bubble burst.
I would love to see you try. Most likely, you would have to pay substantially more purchasing the 50500 BTC towards the end than you get for selling the 50000 BTC all at once at the start, and thus would lose a lot of money. So long as rational market makers outweigh those engaging in irrational herd behaviour in the interim period. Hint: they probably will.
Yes. The market is still too thin to get a decent hourly rate for pushing it around by a few percent. And pushing it down by 60% to $10 will get you slaughtered like the hog you are. I tend to agree that the smaller speculators alone would force you back up to $40 by the time you finished covering your shorts. But at some point between $15 and $20 the real buyers will show up. The ones who want their weed from Silk Road, their asthma meds from India, or just their Wordpress fee, which they _could_ pay with fiat.
Many of them could come up with two or three months in advance for a 30% discount, money they can afford to gamble. Small amounts each, but thousands of buyers, and very, very strong hands. Pump and dump only works if you're not dumping below what it's really worth.
OP is now on my ignore list.
DICK, if not scammer. i am going to have my dad look at your code and we will see if you as much of a piece of shit as I think you are. If not sorry for being hasty. Then again you were awful hasty toward me. I trust MoneyPaktrader over this guy for sure.
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