Topic: Comparison of Offchain Solutions for Crypto Coins - page 5. (Read 1225 times)

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/unconfirmed-transactions
~ 60  thousand

https://bitcoinfees.info/

Looks like the promise of LN increasing bitcoin's ability to scale was pure fud.
Some small vendors have already frozen/canceled btc payouts and asking if their users want to convert to one of the below coins to transfer out.  
https://coinpot.co/news/information-about-latest-bitcoin-core-btc-withdrawals-network-congestion

In the meantime, BCH, BSV, LTC, DOGE, ETH all are working normally because they either
increased blocksize
or
have a faster blockspeed

Which is really the only ways to increase ONCHAIN scaling.  

Lol, u can move all ur unsecure off chain solutions to

https://twitter.com/MZietzke/status/1113497488533577728

Make finally use of the original Bitcoin protocol


 

try to READ. its you with the mis-understanding...
truly feel sorry for you doomad, you spent well more than a year with social drama but shown no sense of doing any practical bitcoin research

you might aswell go play around with fiat as your just wasting your time on a bitcoin forum as its obvious you know nothing about it and your not interested in protecting/innovating bitcoin

ok..

lets word it another way and see how deep you can dig your own holes doomad and windfury
if a totally different network with a different database/ledger stores a contract/tx with a different unit of measure but also 'resembles' that of what also exists on the btc network..

then you have just dug yourself a hoe to say bitcoincash and bitcoinsv are 'bitcoin'

P.S i personally consider bch and bchsv to be altcoins. but its seems doomad and windfury are soo hard in trying to dig deep that other networks dont have different tokens, dont have separation. that they must consider certain forks and alternative networks to actually be 'bitcoin'
.. rathr then just admit the obvious. that other networks are separate, especially when the payment system they use has different units of measure and rules

That's a very long-winded way of you admitting you were totally 100% wrong about it being like fractional reserve, but okay, I'm glad you got it figured out eventually.  Try to understand it before you go spouting off nonsense next time.  There is no fractional reserve involved.

when DEVS shout how BITCOIN is broken and cant scale
    (it can but DEVS are just choosing not to go down that road)

when DEVS shout how BITCOIN is not currency/money/cash
    (it is but DEVS just want people hoarding a useless database in the future)

when DEVS shout how BITCOIN needs to be de-burdened of its utility
   (if you make a coin useless, its value becomes useless)

wasting 3 years so far to stifle bitcoin and too much time to open gateways to other networks. is not in anyway 'innovating' bitcoin. nor is is expanding bitcoin adoption nor promoting bitcoin mainstream.

all its doing is saying that blockchains and bitcoin are crap and that people need to go back to putting funds into contracts with a manager who has to co-sign it.. which is basically saying only fiat works and crypto is broke.

Yep - and now we all know why u r so keen on  reading & posting on the BSV and BCH threads  

There is where the true on-chain music plays

There are solutions to increase onchain capacity
1.  Increase BlockSize  (this is why BCH & BSV have a higher onchain capacity than btc.)
2.  Increase BlockSpeed (this is why litecoin has a greater onchain capacity than btc)

If LN is the holy grail of scaling, you think it is
why is btc transaction fees increasing and now 55 thousand transactions are backlogged,
https://www.blockchain.com/btc/unconfirmed-transactions
maybe because LN is not working to increase scale.
Because used incorrectly LN increases the required onchain transactions instead of decreasing.

Where as gift cards and exchanges are better at decreasing onchain transactions than LN. 

When other coin onchain scaling increased simply by blocksize or blockspeed.

Or people can do like you and stick their heads in the ground until a Lion bites them in the ass.  

Guess we should just completely abandon all work being done on Lightning then.

I filled an invoice out just to see what it looked like. It was a very experimental and novel process, I think there was probably a lot of people like me that just wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

But since you're not happy, I guess all progress should probably be stopped. And we should just return to using bitcoin on-chain, which by all estimates given by you, is also broken beyond repair.

Let's all just cry about it and hope things improve that way.

anyway. back to the topic

did people know that when 'fold' offered 'lightning pizza. out of 1500 'invoices' only 150 resorted to fulfilling in actual pizza getting delivered. 10% success rate.

this was not a low success rate due to 'fold' not having enough value to buy the actual pizza
this was not a low success rate due to 'fold' having issues with the pizza restaurants

this WAS a low success rate due to issues within LN

imagine wanting $20 of pizza. so you lock up $20 btc and then get a channel open and try routing it to 'fold' and find out your single route cant. but them coins are locked for a few weeks so you cant just move them to then open a new channel of pegged coins.

imagine then having to lock up another $20 btc to get another channel open with 'fold' and find out LN has froze out $1 of the pegged balance for things like fee's. meaning you cant fullfill the $20 order

imagine you try again. and finally you have enough pegged balance, and a live connection to 'fold'. guess what. you then find out fold is paying for the pizza using giftcards it got at discount

so would it have been easier and cheaper for you to just buy domino's giftcards via gyft where it would have only cost you $18 of btc and you know for sure you then buy pizza without hassle, without LN middlemen, without worries of routing or balance available issues

Yes Dumbo, it does apply , if you had a working intellect, instead of that mush melon for brains.

Bitcoin can only exist on the bitcoin network, which is why an exchange has to run a bitcoin wallet, and you deposit to a bitcoin address.
LN transactions are nothing more than a representation of a value of bitcoin or litecoin or whatever else they add.
The actual coins stay on their individual chains, as redemption of coins (btc or ltc) happen onchain.

Last try to see if dumbo gets it.
Comparison to an exchange, when a coin is deposit with an exchange, they are in total ownership of your coin.
When an exchange lets users do offchain transactions, they only update their internal ledger of your coin amounts.
That ledger is not part of the blockchain , but a representation of the coin amounts per user , when you withdraw from an exchange, it uses their internal ledger to decide the maximum you may withdraw to the specific coin's blockchain.
The coins on that internal ledger are representations of the value of the coins.
Now compared with LN
In LN, when a coin is time locked onchain in a multi-signature lock,
then LN node internal ledger is updated to show the representation of that value, but the actual coins are locked onchain.
Then LN users transact completely on the LN internal ledger, until their time locks expire.
Once the time locks expire the coins are redeemed ONCHAIN to settle the difference, (basically pay the IOUs generated on LN).

The multi-signature lock makes some people think , you are still in total control of your funds, and you would be wrong.
More of a partial control in the following order:
1: LN's fraud protection mechanism , (Which can seized your entire balance and give it all to the other party)
2: LN internal ledger
3. Lastly You, as 1 & 2 will supersede your ownership until onchain settlement is complete,
    and if 1 or 2 have not removed your coins, then you get them back when the time locks expire.

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-lightning-network

windfury and doomad your about as boring as carlton and lauda 3 years ago with their social drama

problem being is that you 2 spend too much time on social drama and no time actually researching bitcoin
so. take your 'i kiss devs ass' hat off and think about bitcoin.

basics:
at block 570,000 there will be 17625000 btc created
210,000*50.0=10,500,000
210,000*25.0=5,250,000
150,000*12.5=1875000

lightning stats 'show' about 1000 'btc' are 'on ln'

so at block 570,000.. ask yourself
are there
a) 17625000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000btc on LN
b) 17624000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000btc on LN
c) 17625000btc on bitcoins network AND 1000pegged coins on LN

The locked gold comparison doesn't apply. Plus the example doesn't explain technically how there are "IOU pegged promises to pay" issued in Lightning. How can it? There are none.

But I encourage all newbies to listen to franky1, and accept what he preaches as "the truth", before doing your own research.


You didn't read the link to the blog? Ok. Newbies, believe in franky1 that Lightning is "a fractional reserve". Do your research later, or not if you want.

Can you be any more clueless?

https://btcmanager.com/bitrefill-launches-thor-lighting-channel-for-superfast-bitcoin-transactions/

Dash , ether, & doge used to buy funded LN channels,
doomad you should sit down because that probably blew your mind.

Bitrefill is acting as an exchange and they CONTROL those channels, that they are renting out for 30 days at a time.
Bitrefill also sells GIFT CARDS for cryptocoins.

You think you purchased a funded LN channel, but are making a payment to one of the merchants that accept gift cards from Bitrefill.
Bitrefill see you making the payment and route your payment thru their gift card system avoiding any extra lightning hub fees
(cuting costs to increase profit), which they avoided by using the giftcard, also while adding imaginary LN fees to your account
 and from your end all you see is the payment was received.
You really don't know how they paid them, just like any exchange processing offchain transactions.

Bitrefill could run a fractional reserve on the # of funding lightning channels they actually have,
and you are none the wiser as long as they meet required payouts every 30 days.  

BTC Transactions are starting to Backlog
https://www.blockchain.com/btc/unconfirmed-transactions
Over 40 thousand Unconfirmed Transactions at the time of this post
~40% of those are segwit transactions : https://transactionfee.info/charts/payments/segwit

BTC ONCHAIN Transaction fees have increased
Next block inclusion fee increased by a factor of 7X since March 23rd
Six blocks to be included fee has increased by a factor of 24.6X since March 23rd
https://bitcoinfees.info/

The promise of segwit & LN solving the scalability issue and insane fees issues does not appear to match the reality,
that btc is now facing, as btc transaction fees increase while still only serving less than half of the onchain transactions of ethereum current daily volume and ethereum onchain transactions fees are on average 11 cents verses btc of $1.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-transactionfees.html

Litecoin average Onchain transaction fee 6 cents.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/litecoin-transactionfees.html

But in their defense LN devs have said
https://www.ccn.com/lightning-network-dev-warns-against-marketing-lightning-as-the-answer-to-high-bitcoin-fees
Translation : Don't expect the Lightning Hub fees to stay low once LN node operators decide to ream you for higher fees.  


In comparison
gift cards , no transaction fees , only inactivity fees if not used within a year
exchange, no or very low transaction fee for offchain processing, unlimited offchain transactions to other exchange members,
but withdrawal fee if moved off exchange(withdraw fees vary per exchange & coin)
LN , $1 to fund btc onchain, $1 to redeem btc onchain, last reports of 42 offchain transactions for 5 cents.
https://ambcrypto.com/bitcoins-btc-lightning-network-scales-transaction-fees-down-to-0-049/
(Problem with LN report is no details were released on exactly what was purchased or
whether or not the guy was just sending dust around.)
(If he was sending around only a few cents that is totally useless for the average person that needs to send anywhere from $10 to $200.)

For the average person, a gift card would be cheapest , and exchange the next and LN still rounds up in 3rd place,
because of the 2 required onchain transactions.

FYI: Using Litecoin instead of btc with LN
LN , 6 cents to fund LTC onchain, 6 cents to redeem LTC onchain, last reports of 42 offchain transactions for 5 cents.
so using LTC and funding the exact same LN amounts, costs only 17 cents
while on BTC it costs $2.05  , now it should be apparent why true onchain capacity is important in fee price reduction.
Also why smarter people will use LTC with LN instead of BTC.
It is 34X more expensive to use btc with LN's offchain IOU network as it is to use Litecoin with LN's offchain IOU Network.  
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

mr flip flop. unlike u i understand more then you realise
your rebuttle is that
if you imagine A buys a channel of 0.16btc from (B)itrefill for under 0.04btc. the LN channel would look like
A[0.00<>0.16]B

your rebuttle is also for A to the get to touch the 0.16btc.. others need to route funds through.
EG C saying they want to pay 0.16 to A
where
A[0.00<>0.16]B[0.00<>0.16]c
becomes
A[0.00<>0.16]B[0.16<>0.00]c
becomes
A[0.16<>0.00]B[0.16<>0.00]c

but here is where you are not understanding things.
1.this contract
A[0.00<>0.16]B
is not some global community agreed/audited contract. its purely an agreement PRIVATELY between 2 people
(2 nodes)
so A can agree to this contract without even caring about the blockchain. because there is no global community validating that A B's contract has to meet some terms. A and B can shake hands to any agreement they want

2. guess what mr flip flop, because a contract is just between 2 people. they can agree whatever they like.. they are "free to write their own code" for what their private node shakes hand to.
they are "free to choose the rules that they prefer"

3. there is no consensus/no byzantine generals solution in LN to keep a group of people following a select rule.

imagine it this way
99% of LN users ar not going to sit in thier basement with a desktop running a fullnode that checks that the contract they agree with is pegged/backed by a blockchain locked fund
99% of LN users are going to run mobile apps that run 'autopilot' that just auto accepts requests because 99% of people will be at starbucks and grocery stores on their phone. not in a basement
so if A pays 0.04btc and see's a channel of [0.00<>0.16] ofcourse A will agree to it because thats what he damn well paid for
no matter what the blockchain contains A will agree to what A paid for, even if it doesnt tally

i find it shocking how you pretend that blockchain rules of bitcoin are loose and free to individuality. but then flip to think that LN is strict and rule following where 2 private people cant choose things outside a rule

cant you see how your flip flop understanding of consensus just dug yourself a hole
LN has no consensus.

Bitrefill are locking BTC into a channel in order to route it.  They aren't just handing over more BTC than you give them, you gormless imbecile.  If you open one of these channels, your balance starts as zero.  Someone has to route a payment through them to you in order for you to receive any BTC.  That's the service you're paying for.  It's not magicked out of nowhere.  It's not money from nothing.  It's not fractional reserve.  Either you don't understand the service they are offering or you are deliberately trying to twist it to sound as though it's akin to fractional reserve when it's not. 

Spend less time talking nonsense and more time making at least some attempt to comprehend any of this.

as for windfury.
about the IOU
its logic and also the LN devs themselves say its IOU
if you lock up a KG bar of gold for 60 days in a vault. and then in another location you are playing with 1000grams of something.
A) has the 1kg of gold been taken out of the vault and chopped up into 1000 pieces?
B) is the 'something' a different item thats simply meant to represent 1kg of gold but in more distributable allotments
C) if you knew there could only be X gold and they are all accounted for in vaults and on one system then how can they also be in another system at the same time
D) during the first 100confirms of a blockreward solution. pools are privately discussing and tallying who deserves however many sats of the 12.5btc.... are suddenly the bitcoins that have yet to mature, suddenly become spendable. or are they still locked to the bitcoin network and people are just playing around finding a private IOU agreement that tallies with the total currently locked.

about the fractional reserve
bitrefill let people buy LN channels with balance using DIFFERENT CURRENCIES
bitrefil also let people buy channels with balance for less than the balance
500,000 sats capacityYou pay0.000333 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.001109 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.001663 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.003105 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacityYou pay0.003992 BTC

lastly..
my thought process has never been 'believe me/trust me/ first then do research
its always been to just go do some research

Just learned these information now. I only hear the word Lightning network but ever since I don't hear any gift cards and off chain transaction. I'll just have this thread as a reference so that I can study about these kind of stuffs. Thank you OP.

do you even understand...

do you even know what the cypherpunks were trying to do for DECADES before satoshi.
do you understand why blockchains invention was so revolutionary.
do you even know the what a blockchain does that an agreement between 2 individuals cannot do.

do you evn know the risks/problems/challenges/bugs/faults/issues that can occur between 2 private individuals that can rewrite their own node. where their nodes are not part of some big community checking system.

i really think you need to understand the pitfals of offchain and the advantages of onchain.. as it seems even though blockchains have been around for 10 years.. you have not learned the problem blockchain solve that private agreements cant and never did

"offchain" is not new tech, its actually old tech re-branded with lots of wishy washy buzzwords

Translation Doomad is a Bitcoin Nutjob.

You seem to ignore the fact, it is the LN developers proposing updates that guarantee that LN is a fractional reserve.
Maybe you should contact the devs in the links and tell them to shut up.

Even if they do shut up, fractional reserve is only a small software change away,
the blockchain prevented that, go offchain and it is only a matter of time.

Plus many will use LN, they just be too stupid to know it is a fractional reserve, just like the banking system is one.
Where your confusion keeps thinking , I said LN would die , is in your own fantasies, I said it was too late for that.

Also in your confusion, you can't grasp LN is not bitcoin, LN is a 3rd party offchain IOU network.
Litecoin users are not so stupid to claim LN is litecoin.