Topic: Comparison of Offchain Solutions for Crypto Coins - page 6. (Read 1225 times)

You're quoting a draft from July 2018 for a proposal that never came to be. Seems like the whole point of your thread is simply to FUD Lightning. Nobody has any plans to create these Virtual Payment Channels. You didn't even quote the entirety of the quote:


It was a proposal. Nothing ever came of it. To equate that with there currently being fractional reserve banking in Lightning is low-level deception. What is the point of all this "but what if" conjecturing? What if a critical bug is discovered in the Bitcoin Core code tomorrow? What if the earth gets smashed by a comet? These are also both real concerns we need to be worrying about  

Of course that they might be possible. Now will someone really do it and get away with it? That is something we need to wait and see.

Remember also that if the platform is not secure enough it could also be hacked, even if the people running it had noble intentions of offering a pretty good service.

Very good and reasonable rant for on-chain tx security, on-chain use and on-chain scaling btw.

And we all know all other things are in conflict with money transmitter, custodian, kyc, aml.. Whatever laws, all that is much more better sorted out in the honest, 10y proven on-chain Pure Bitcoin P2P protocol.

We still have saved that one

 

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology


broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance


funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding


no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel


oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning
..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

Correct, Lightning is not the on-chain Bitcoin network, it's a network for off-chain transactions.

[/quote]


What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?


Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.


It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.


Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.


But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.


What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.


Not a mere agreement, or promise. Those Bitcoins were confirmed on-chain when participants opened the channel.


Marriage contract? Haha.

Plus there are no IOUs in Lightning, do your research.


Not the blockchain? When it's supposed to wait for 6 confirmations to open a Lightning channel?


Off-topic. But if you didn't know, there are transaction limits in Lightning.


I don't know what you mean, but everything is settled on-chain once you broadcast the final state of the channel.


Ok, explain it like I'm stupid. Without the propaganda, what are watchtowers and channel factories? How do they work technically?

Counterfeiting on Lightening Network really possible? If yes , how possible? Who could do the Counterfeiting without being detected or getting caught? How can Counterfeiting be possible when transactions on LN are not with real Bitcoin. Has anyone successfully Counterfeited on the network before or this is mere speculation?

what i have been continually telling you is this:
1. LN is NOT the bitcoin network. LN is its own separate network
2. just like all altcoins just because a transaction (for settlement) look like a particular format does NOT make them a bitcoin transaction
3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain
4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER
7. the channel is just an agreement/promise between 2 parties. a contract. yes a promise/agreement/contract are all the same thing

even a marriage contract is a promise. a commitment is a promise. but there is no 100% guarantee its final. its an ongoing thing that can change. "i PROMISE to love honour and obey in sickness and in health"
LN is not a immutable settled fund. its a promise. AKA an IOU
LN is not 8 decimil measured. its 12 decimal. so its not even the same unit of account. thus is pegged
EG
imagine you bought $10 of game funds. the game funds are 10000millidollars.. they are not $10. they are pegged balance to represent $10 but they are not actually $10.
same thing with 'stablecoins' they are not real fiat, but pegged tokens to represent real bank balance.

only the bitcoin blockchain is the final immutable state
if its not on the blockchain its not a guarantee, its just a promise, hope/maybe

8. there is no community support to audit the LN payment values tally against bitcoin network locked funds. it is just the channel partners that agree they are happy with how the channel is set up (what happens in channel stays inchannel)
9. if i paid you ~$4k in fiat. i would not care how you done it but i would want/expect/agree to a LN channel with ~1btc in LN balance..
10. if i paid you $400 i would be more than happy and agree to getting 1btc in LN balance
11. after the playing around with LN balance has been done. the balance is NOT sent to the bitcoin network. instead it goes back to you (or in the case of bitrefill, them) and they aggregate and decide what to do next.
12. once you update your research on watchtowers and factories you will learn that bitrefill is acting like a factory. they create the value and the channel party just agrees with it. thats how LN works(emphasis point 8 )

franky1, can you tell is what your answer to that is? I'm very curious what your deep research on the Lightning Network will bring us. Thanks.

As with most things, the final conclusion is made by the person reading the article.

And it may surprise many to hear but not everyone will come to the same conclusion , because not everyone wants the same thing.

Examples:

Someone wanting to truly lower the onchain transactions as much as possible ,
would choose a gift card is the superior solution.

Someone preferring to exchange crypto coins, offchain and immediately withdraw with no worries of time locks,
would choose an exchange as the superior solution.

Someone running a LN hub for profit or pure development,
would choose LN as the superior solution.

The final choice of each individual depends on their personal motivations,
and since everyone has different motivations, the best solution will vary per individual.  

Oddly enough , if all offchain solutions do not appeal to you in any way,
you have made a personal conclusion,
your personal conclusion would be that Onchain is the Superior Solution ,
and offchain transactions poses too much potential for corruption.

OP,you provided a comparison but there's no conclusion.
Which one is the best method for offchain transactions?Is there a "best offchain transaction solution"?
All the 3 solutions are centralized(I don't think that there's a decentralized offchain solution in existence),which makes me think that exit scams are possible...

From what I got from this thread thus far is:

1. Some people are really upset at Lightning.
2. There is no fractional reserve banking happening with Lightning.
3. KYC in Lightning is a "but what if" fear used to further people's beliefs as to why they are upset with Lightning.

If KYC is imposed for some Lightning nodes, traffic that doesn't want to go through those nodes will simply skip around it. New nodes will come into existence to take their business. Such are the laws of supply and demand.