Topic: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy - page 2. (Read 418 times)

A bit But how cool would it be to say: "Your money is burried at +34° 59′ 20.00″, -106° 36′ 52″"?

Side tip: use address labels! And create regular backups, because if you'd have to restore from seed, you'd lose all your labels.

For the bitcoin seller, you can do cash via mail to anonymous PO box, to a pseudonym, to a drop off address or location, or to poste restante.

For cash in person, it is trivially easy to hide your face since COVID, and no one looks twice at anyone covering most of their face with a mask. Add in a hat or something with a hood, and you can easily be unidentifiable.

For giftcards, you can easily receive a giftcard to a burner email address, and then credit it to an online account before releasing the bitcoin.

It depends on how you interact with your KYC wallet.

If you view the balance of that wallet via anything other than your own full node, then whichever third party node(s) or server(s) you are connecting to will be able to see all the addresses in the wallet and link them together under a common owner. If you have KYCed coins in address A, and you then send some of your non KYCed coins to address B, the third parties can link those together. They could then look to see where the address B coins from, and potentially infer that you own that wallet as well.

If you want to move any coins between KYCed and non-KYCed wallets, they should be coinjoined first, otherwise you establish a link between your two wallets.

Kind of inconvenient. Don't you think?  


Actually face-to-face seems good to me. But as Loyce said, they will know who I am.


Thanks for the options.

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Thank you all. I have concluded that services like robosats seem to be the best and most convenient option. Otherwise, paying someone face to face would be also great. Every option has some disadvantages unfortunately.

Finally, I decided to do nothing with my KYC coins. I don't want to waste too much time and effort. So, I will create 1 seed with my seedsigner and I will a passphrase on top of it. I will send there all my KYC coins and it will be idle from now on. Then, I will create a multisig vault (a fresh new vault) and I will send all my non-kyc coins there. If I have any kind of suspicion that my UTXO may be mixed and not strictly Non-KYC, it will go straight to my KYC coins wallet. Sounds good?

With all those options, the seller can't be anonymous. I wouldn't mind selling Bitcoin for euros in cash, but I wouldn't want to show my face doing it in person. Sharing my bank account or postal address also means I'm not anonymous.
The only thing I can think of is burrying the cash on a certain location for the seller to pick up, and hope there are no wildlife cameras in place. It's not very practical though, so you're back to:

Definitely avoid the ATM option. If you check their website, you can see that they've gone way too far with verification than they used to be. For 500,000 sat, they'd request you to give them your phone number. That's enough to track you down.

Gift card and cash are the most anonymous, but there is little to zero liquidity for both. Especially here in Greece. And if you find one user in this forum who wants to sell bitcoin, be prepared to pay in a very generous premium price.

Sure, but I don't understand why you've quoted me. It's him who wants the mixed coins to be sent in one address.

Consolidating mixed UTXOs can reduce the privacy you gain from coinjoining and is generally not recommended. This can be mitigated to a great degree by creating a payjoin transaction where you would join UTXOs with other users to create a payment for the combined amount of your own UTXOs. There are several wallets which support payjoins and Wasabi might add payments within coinjoins in the future but currently the most user friendly option I've seen is Samourai's Joinbot.

Sure, but you must pay with a method which is not linked to your personal data in any way. The easiest way to do this is probably going to be via cash. You ca do this in person or via mail, or depending on your jurisdiction, you might be able to do an anonymous deposit in to the seller's bank account. Also depending on your jurisdiction you might have access to money orders or similar you can buy in cash without handing over personal details and giving/sending to the seller. Other options available to you may include any altcoins you have not linked to your identity, buying giftcards in cash and selling them for bitcoin, buying pre-paid debit cards which do not require personal information, or non-KYC ATMs.

Hi and thanks. I wanna stay on this part of the answer for a bit. People with whom I have transacted in robosats know my name. I have paid them via debit card.

This is intriguing. I haven't thought about it but it seems like my transactions aren't fully private after all.

Let's say I wanted to buy 500,000 sats. Is there really a way to do so without ANYONE know about it?


Hey hey! Yeah I LL see you there.

The first thing you need to figure out is what you want to protect against.

A is KYCed. Presumably you want to remove all traces of your KYC and end up with completely fresh coins.

B and C are known to one or more RoboSats traders. What else do these individuals know? What else are you comfortable with them being able to find out? Are you happy to consolidate B and C together before you coinjoin them and let each trader be aware of the other trade? Are you happy to consolidate B and/or C with other coins without coinjoining them and let these RoboSats traders follow things forward, if they wanted to?

Once you've figured out this, you can figure out which coins need coinjoined and which outputs can or cannot be consolidated. The safest route will be to coinjoin each input individually, but this will also be the most expensive and may be unnecessary depending on your needs.

Given what you say about not wanting the government to know about your holdings, then realize that if you coinjoin KYCed coins, although the government won't be able to trace your coins, they'll still deduce that you own them. An alternative solution is to send your KYCed coins back to where you bought them from, sell them, withdraw the fiat, and then use that fiat on RoboSats or similar to buy fresh, non-KYCed coins.

Fellow citizen! 

Legislation is barely existent here. You can reach us in the Greek board for tax-related questions.

I am not anymore. My coins are, for the time being, separated in KYC (older coins) and non-kyc (newer coins). My question in this post was if I could combine them, after mixing them all separately, without issue.

In Greece, legislation is not so straightforward. I just don't want to have to deal with the state in the future. That's why I ask. Thanks

Then, don't use KYC, as long as it isn't illegal to do. You have no obligation to give up everything about you and your bitcoin to the government, which is exactly what you're doing when buying from a KYC-ed exchange. Buying peer-to-peer isn't illegal, and I guess it's reasonable to assume that in countries where bitcoin is taxed taxable, reporting your profit will create no problems at all.

You can still save the situation if you sell your KYC-ed coins back to the exchange and buy peer-to-peer.

Certainly, but my question can be beneficial to anyone. Therefore it can apply to people with much larger UTXOs etc.

I don't expect governments to care about 0.005BTC, and I fully trust they're not capable of tracing it.

Here, as long as I'm not doing anything illegal, "liking it" isn't defined in the law. So I have to report my taxes, and that's it. I'm surprised they haven't asked for a list of owned addresses yet, that's probably only because they can't handle it, not because they don't want it. But once they do, I'll create billions of addresses for them

Thanks, no I always change robosats robot (identity).

I am kind of sceptical when it comes to KYC UTXOs because I want the government to know nothing about my coins. In their mind, Bitcoin is used for illegal activities. In reality, I just exchange a small amount of Euro to buy something more valuable. But apparently it is not something they want, at least in southern Europe where I live.

After the coinjoins, every UTXO is non-KYC by definition. So, you can spend all the inputs to D.

If you used different Robosats identities, then coinjoining the inputs separately and then consolidating them into D is your best course. If you did use the same Robosats identity for acquiring both B and C, then your best course is to make two coinjoins, A, separately, and B with C followed by consolidation afterwards.

Hi Jay. This seems like a good choice. Thanks

You can coinjoin A into UTXO D
Then send all of B, C and D with the lowest fee possible to one UTXO; E.

Or it means that the fee being paid is to high and defeats the purpose of consolidating, so a better option will be to skip all the hoops of coinjining and just use the least expensive method to send all the UTXOs into one single output.

- Jay -

I mean I wouldn't worry about it It's not enough to fear a $5 wrench attack when you buy a coffee, and I doubt your exchange is going to hunt you down for it either.

Just out of curiousity, what do you mean? Are the amounts too small to worry about it being KYCed?