Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy - page 3.

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 03:39:01 AM

Quote from: Poker Player on August 21, 2023, 03:23:55 AM

... but I think it is not in our best interest having too large UTXos either.

why do you say so?

If you make a small payment from a rich address, the seller might know too much about you.

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I also need to clarify that when I say large UTXO, I mean less than 500k sats

In that case, I wouldn't worry about it.

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For each UTXO:

+ 2 rounds with 10 collabs with max collab fee: 2000 per coinjoin = 40,000 sats.
+ mining fees

That's about 10% of the total amount! In this case I'd stop worrying about the "KYC exchange" knowing something about you, and just send everything to one address with the lowest possible fee.

dzungmobile

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I stand with Ukraine!

Why do you have idea to consolidate KYC and non-KYC UTXOs into a same D?

It is easy to create two wallets for KYC UTXOs and non-KYC UTXOs, so why don't do this and avoid unnecessary mess. Your privacy relates to your inputs and outputs, how you use them before and after Coinjoins. Mixing two types of UTXOs and send them to one wallet, one address is bad idea.

apogio

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Quote from: Poker Player on August 21, 2023, 03:23:55 AM

... but I think it is not in our best interest having too large UTXos either.

why do you say so? I also need to clarify that when I say large UTXO, I mean less than 500k sats

Quote from: LoyceV on August 21, 2023, 03:20:00 AM

I don't know the fees your planning to pay. Can you share (approximate) numbers?

Not really, because it's hard to estimate. But assuming let's assume:

For each UTXO:

+ 2 rounds with 10 collabs with max collab fee: 2000 per coinjoin = 40,000 sats.
+ mining fees

Poker Player

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 21, 2023, 03:20:00 AM

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If you send all the funds you have in each of these addresses, first from A to D and then from B and C to E, if in the future you use D and E for a transaction it will be clear that you, the owner of A that has passed KYC in the exchange, also own the other addresses.

So don't do that in the future Wink

I had said that because the initial idea of the OP was to consolidate everything into one UTXo, but I think it is not in our best interest having too large UTXos either.

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 03:16:36 AM

You mean consolidating them. Not just use address E twice. Correct?

Yes. Just use both inputs for the transaction.

Quote from: Poker Player on August 21, 2023, 03:19:33 AM

What about privacy?

B and C both came from RoboSats, so someone knows the link already. A and BC won't get linked on-chain if you send them to D and E respectively.

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If you send all the funds you have in each of these addresses, first from A to D and then from B and C to E, if in the future you use D and E for a transaction it will be clear that you, the owner of A that has passed KYC in the exchange, also own the other addresses.

So don't do that in the future Wink

Poker Player

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 21, 2023, 03:06:21 AM

How about this alternative:
Send A to D.
Create a new address E.
Send B and C to E.

Usually, consolidating funds is meant to reduce transaction fees in the future. If you're using coinjoin, you pay a fee that is higher than the transaction fees, so there's no gain in consolidating funds anymore.

What about privacy?

If you send all the funds you have in each of these addresses, first from A to D and then from B and C to E, if in the future you use D and E for a transaction it will be clear that you, the owner of A that has passed KYC in the exchange, also own the other addresses.

The only thing I can think of is not to send the whole amount in those transactions you propose so that it is not obvious that it is a self-transfer.

apogio

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 21, 2023, 03:06:21 AM

Create a new address E.
Send B and C to E.

You mean consolidating them. Not just use address E twice. Correct?

Quote from: LoyceV on August 21, 2023, 03:06:21 AM

Usually, consolidating funds is meant to reduce transaction fees in the future. If you're using coinjoin, you pay a fee that is higher than the transaction fees, so there's no gain in consolidating funds anymore.

But I want my UTXOs to be larger. Do you mean that coinjoin and consolidation mustn't be combined, or that it is not worth it in terms of fees?

LoyceV

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Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

Current Situation
I have 3 UTXOs (A, B, C). A is from KYC exchange, B and C are from RoboSats.

Desired Actions

1. Mix the UTXOs doing some coinjoins
2. Consolidate the UTXOs to a larger UTXO and send it to a specific address that I own (D).

How about this alternative:
Send A to D.
Create a new address E.
Send B and C to E.

Usually, consolidating funds is meant to reduce transaction fees in the future. If you're using coinjoin, you pay a fee that is higher than the transaction fees, so there's no gain in consolidating funds anymore.

apogio

sr. member

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Merit: 896

Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 21, 2023, 02:50:40 AM

Know that if you want privacy, you may not need to use a KYC exchange at all because all the coins you buy or received on the exchange are recorded and known even after you withdraw the coins. Although, there may still be other reasons you feel like to consolidate coins from KYC exchanges.

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.

I will prefer this because I will prefer to conjoin the KYC one separately and will not make it link to the non KYC ones. Although...

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

Q1: I reckon that action 3 is the worst since I am mixing the original UTXOs all together and therefore someone would be able to tell that the person who owns A, does own B, C too. Am I correct?

...this one is good as well.

Hello. From your response, I believe that I should treat Non-KYC and KYC coins completely separately, even after coinjoining them. That's what I thought too, but I am not certain why (1) and (2) differ. Finally, I must say I started buying Non-KYC bitcoin thanks to this forum, but I still own some UTXOs that are linked to Binance, unfortunately.

Charles-Tim

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Know that if you want privacy, you may not need to use a KYC exchange at all because all the coins you buy or received on the exchange are recorded and known even after you withdraw the coins. Although, there may still be other reasons you feel like to consolidate coins from KYC exchanges.

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.

I will prefer this because I will prefer to conjoin the KYC one separately and will not make it link to the non KYC ones. Although...

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

Q1: I reckon that action 3 is the worst since I am mixing the original UTXOs all together and therefore someone would be able to tell that the person who owns A, does own B, C too. Am I correct?

...this one is good as well.

Quote from: apogio on August 21, 2023, 02:38:39 AM

3. Consolidate A, B, C in advance and then do some coinjoins and send the output to D.

Not advisable because of the KYC coins.

apogio

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 896

Hello.

Current Situation
I have 3 UTXOs (A, B, C). A is from KYC exchange, B and C are from RoboSats.

Desired Actions

1. Mix the UTXOs doing some coinjoins
2. Consolidate the UTXOs to a larger UTXO and send it to a specific address that I own (D).

Possible Actions

1. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate them into D.
2. Do some coinjoins on A, B, C separately and then consolidate only the non-kyc UTXOs (B, C) and send them to D.
3. Consolidate A, B, C in advance and then do some coinjoins and send the output to D.

Thoughts - Questions

Q1: I reckon that action 3 is the worst since I am mixing the original UTXOs all together and therefore someone would be able to tell that the person who owns A, does own B, C too. Am I correct?
Q2: I believe (1) and (2) to be the same actually. If I mix the UTXOs separately, someone would be able to know that A is linked to my Identity, but they wouldn't be able to know which coinjoin output corresponds to the input. Therefore, I should be ok. Am I correct?
Q3: Which of the possible actions should I choose?

Topic: Consolidating UTXOs and maintaining privacy - page 3. (Read 418 times)